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Permit to Travel Machines Again

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Mutant Lemming

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Sorry to raise this again but this is a slightly different point regarding their use. If, at an unstaffed station with a ticket machine where said machine refuses to accept the notes you shove in it and you have insufficient coins to cover the fare, is that an acceptable reason to purchase a Permit instead ?
 
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Mutant Lemming

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Yes it is.

Cheers I am heading out in to uncharted South Eastern territory and notice I have a number of manky looking £10 notes. Recall having some problems last time with well used notes at Sittingbourne but had plenty of change on me then.
 

district

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If you can't pay using any of the accepted payment methods here through no fault of your own then you can use a permit to travel machine and pay on board or at the excess fares office at your destination.
 

swt_passenger

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If the TVM is switched on and working, the PTT machine will normally be switched off.

So I wouldn't necessarily assume that if your notes don't work your alternative will necessarily be available to you. If you ever get to SWT territory the only PTT machines are at stations without a TVM...
 

island

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And in those circumstances you're allowed to buy a random ticket that you can afford with your available coins and part-exchange it for your desired ticket on-train or at your destination.
 

Mutant Lemming

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I actually encountered another instance invovling the purchase or non-purchase of a ticket or permit last night while travelling from Maidstone West to St.Pancras. Being a good law abiding citizen I was in possession of a valid ticket for my journey. The shuttle up to Strood had a team of Railway Enforcement Officers on board (along with the conductor/guard). At Cuxton four lads got on (one with a pint of beer from wherever they had just come from) when the enforcement team come round they said they had got on the platform from a particular route that avoids them passing the Permit to Travel machine. The enforcement team mentioned that they should be facing a £20 fine as well as the fare but one of the enforcement team who knows the station reckoned their excuse was plausible. Even the £2.30 each they were charged seemed to annoy them ('Could have got a cab for less between us' being their comment). From a number of recent observations regarding the ticket machine, permit thing it appears that unless someone actually confesses that they didn't even try to use the machine and just boarded the train then there are no grounds to issue a penalty fare if the passenger offers a 'plausible' reason for not purchasing a ticket from the machine. Incidentally the machine at Maidstone West is pretty good as it accepted one of the rather mangey tenners I thought might cause it a problem.
 

island

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If they said "a £20 fine" or "as well as the fare", these are both incorrect. A Penalty Fare of £20 is a higher than normal fare that applies under certain circumstances. A customer who has been required to pay a Penalty Fare has not been fined (only courts and possibly the police can issue fines) and payment of a Penalty Fare discharges the liability to pay the cost of the journey.
 

junglejames

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From a number of recent observations regarding the ticket machine, permit thing it appears that unless someone actually confesses that they didn't even try to use the machine and just boarded the train then there are no grounds to issue a penalty fare if the passenger offers a 'plausible' reason for not purchasing a ticket from the machine.

Ive blatantly admitted to not using a permit to travel machine before. Guard never did anything. Just warned me the rules say i should have done. To which I just said i couldnt see the point. In fact, what is the point in them? The only difference is, if i manage to avoid paying the fare (which i would never do anyway), the TOC ends up 5p better off from the permit to travel machine (thats all i would put in it). If i manage to pay the fare (which i always do) then the TOC has lost out because they have printed off extra tickets. OK a negligible cost.

Anyway, i never use the machines at my local station (I wont be pointing my local station out!!!)
 

Mike395

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Ive blatantly admitted to not using a permit to travel machine before. Guard never did anything.
But an RPI could have issued a Penalty Fare.
Just warned me the rules say i should have done. To which I just said i couldnt see the point.
That's an issue for management rather than the guard, though.
In fact, what is the point in them?
To indicate willingness to pay. But most TOCs realise that there are flaws in this arrangement and most PTT machines have been withdrawn.
The only difference is, if i manage to avoid paying the fare (which i would never do anyway), the TOC ends up 5p better off from the permit to travel machine (thats all i would put in it).
There appears to be some misunderstanding.

Firstly, what method of payment would you use to buy the ticket, as if you were planning to use cash, you could be asked why you only paid 5p. If you were planning to use a card, then that's a different matter.

Secondly, the amount entered is deducted from the fare, so the TOC would not be 5p better off.
If i manage to pay the fare (which i always do) then the TOC has lost out because they have printed off extra tickets. OK a negligible cost.
A negligible cost the TOC has budgeted for, so not an issue.
Anyway, i never use the machines at my local station (I wont be pointing my local station out!!!)
The consequences of that vary depending on what method of payment you wish to use, and what method of payment the machines take, and whether the train is a Penalty Fare train or not.
 

bb21

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To indicate willingness to pay. But most TOCs realise that there are flaws in this arrangement and most PTT machines have been withdrawn.

Also as some people have pointed out, to serve as evidence as to where the passenger boarded the service.
 

MikeWh

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Anyway, i never use the machines at my local station (I wont be pointing my local station out!!!)

I wonder which local station to Ashford International has PTT machines? Westenhanger? Ham Street?
 

Flamingo

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Ive blatantly admitted to not using a permit to travel machine before. Guard never did anything. Just warned me the rules say i should have done. To which I just said i couldnt see the point. In fact, what is the point in them? The only difference is, if i manage to avoid paying the fare (which i would never do anyway), the TOC ends up 5p better off from the permit to travel machine (thats all i would put in it). If i manage to pay the fare (which i always do) then the TOC has lost out because they have printed off extra tickets. OK a negligible cost.

Anyway, i never use the machines at my local station (I wont be pointing my local station out!!!)

All I'm going to say is that if an RPI ever gets involved, it's going to end in tears...
 

Mutant Lemming

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As I witnessed on Saturday, there appear to be a myriad of perefectly valid reasons why people board a train without a ticket (or permit even) and assessing whether someone is trying it on must be nigh on impossible unless the person either blatantly admits they intended not to pay or tells some glaringly obvious lies.
 

yorkie

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As I witnessed on Saturday, there appear to be a myriad of perefectly valid reasons why people board a train without a ticket (or permit even) and assessing whether someone is trying it on must be nigh on impossible unless the person either blatantly admits they intended not to pay or tells some glaringly obvious lies.
True.

But if someone admitted along the lines of "Yes, I am aware of a PTT machine, no I chose not to use it, yes I had coins to put in it, I simply chose not to" then my thoughts would be that a Penalty Fare would be the least of their concerns.
 

Flamingo

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True.

But if someone admitted along the lines of "Yes, I am aware of a PTT machine, no I chose not to use it, yes I had coins to put in it, I simply chose not to" then my thoughts would be that a Penalty Fare would be the least of their concerns.

I was looking at one depot that has the letters and "rogues gallery" of court outcomes up on it's Messroom wall a while ago. Average fine for not having a ticket seemed to be £350 (significantly higher than threatening / disorderly behaviour fines). This ties in with cases I have been involved in as well.
 

Stigy

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I was looking at one depot that has the letters and "rogues gallery" of court outcomes up on it's Messroom wall a while ago. Average fine for not having a ticket seemed to be £350 (significantly higher than threatening / disorderly behaviour fines). This ties in with cases I have been involved in as well.
The average fine at court for intent to avoid payment offences (s.5(3) RRA 1889) is £350 (average week's salary). The average fine for Byelaw offences where tickets are involved is typically half that.

We have to bear in mind that PTT machines aren't the most reliable of machines, and their very existance suggests that ticket issuing facilities are very limited, therefore I think, although perfectly acceptable to report for such offences or PF people, it would often be easier to sell a ticket, unless the individual clearly shows signs that they are trying it on (like alighting at another unmanned station, and not making any attempt to buy a ticket.)
 
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Flamingo

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True. I was more thinking of the potential response if someone "There was a PERTIS machine, I know how to work them, I chose not to do so, do your worst".
 

Stigy

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True. I was more thinking of the potential response if someone "There was a PERTIS machine, I know how to work them, I chose not to do so, do your worst".
Easy enough if they admit their intent to avoid payment, but as I said, if they don't, you've only got a Byelaw to play with and although a PTT machine prints your authority to travel, I feel we could be on a sticky wicket if that is the ONLY place at said station to get some form of rail ticket.
 

Mutant Lemming

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People who blatlantly admit such things or front it out are unlikely to be paying anything anyway and would probably welcome the confrontation.
It is more how does one discern among the rest of the travelling public who is genuine and who isn't. As I have encountered while travelling around, there are a 1001 legitimate excuses to board a train without a valid ticket so how do ticket examining staff discern who are genuine and who are frauds?
The excuse I heard on Saturday night was plausible - but had the 'team' heard the first lad mention to the others that they should have got the permit then it may have been different - although even then, only one of them was aware of that. I just think it is, at times, an impossible situation - on the one hand you are insinuating that someone innocent may be a fraudster and the other you may be letting a freeloader off.
 

Flamingo

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People who blatlantly admit such things or front it out are unlikely to be paying anything anyway and would probably welcome the confrontation.
It is more how does one discern among the rest of the travelling public who is genuine and who isn't. As I have encountered while travelling around, there are a 1001 legitimate excuses to board a train without a valid ticket so how do ticket examining staff discern who are genuine and who are frauds?
The excuse I heard on Saturday night was plausible - but had the 'team' heard the first lad mention to the others that they should have got the permit then it may have been different - although even then, only one of them was aware of that. I just think it is, at times, an impossible situation - on the one hand you are insinuating that someone innocent may be a fraudster and the other you may be letting a freeloader off.

Hang them all, God knows his own... <D
 
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