Permanent steam on the Settle & Carlisle?

[Fawkes Cat]

Posting this in the full knowledge that this is the Speculative board...

Problem: although a lot of mainline steam locomotives are preserved, there's nowhere really appropriate to run them: preserved lines are short and limited to 25 mph running. And per threads on the preservation board, I gather heavy locos are not good for lightly laid track. Running on regular mainlines is tricky in that they are busy, and by today's standards even express steam engines are slow and hard to schedule.

Solution: adopt the Settle and Carlisle line to be a (mainly) steam worked railway. Make sure the existing timetable is maintained for 'everyday' use, but add steam hauled services: this could give a mix of express and slow workings, giving an attractive visitor experience. Regular service runs throughout the year, augmented by steam when there is customer demand.

Please now point out all the flaws in my thinking...

 

[Randomer]

I'm sure more experienced member will add to this but off the top of my head:

- Traction knowledge for all of the different locomotives in question (most steam types have quirks, even individual quirks on particular units).

- Route knowledge of the line when compared with the above traction knowledge, or are we proposing the route being permanently conducted and if so who by.

- The majority of preserved locomotives are not maintained to mainline standards or fitted with the necessary equipment (GSM-R, OTMR, TPWS and AWS to start with). Even if somehow some of these could not be used on the line, unlikely at best, they would still be required to get the locomotives there if not using road transport. These are a substantial modification and paperwork cost. If we limit ourselves to locomotives already suitable for main line work they are much fewer in number and in a lot of cases very busy to begin with and wouldn't be the point of the service you have outlined.

- Facilities at both ends of the line; water supply & coal supply as well as methods to turn locomotives have all been lost to time and no longer being required. Putting them back in place isn't going to be cheap when the land has already been used for other things.

- Finally profitability (or at least break even), steam is expensive to run and I'm not convinced a weekly service for example would actually sell enough tickets one the novelty factor had worn off.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I'm sure more experienced member will add to this but off the top of my head:


- Traction knowledge for all of the different locomotives in question (most steam types have quirks, even individual quirks on particular units).

Yes, good point. Something like this would have to be essentially a professional operation, rather than for amateurs to rock up with their loco for a quick drive.

- Route knowledge of the line when compared with the above traction knowledge, or are we proposing the route being permanently conducted and if so who by.

As above, being essentially professional, this would mean regular crews regularly working the same route.

- The majority of preserved locomotives are not maintained to mainline standards or fitted with the necessary equipment (GSM-R, OTMR, TPWS and AWS to start with). Even if somehow some of these could not be used on the line, unlikely at best, they would still be required to get the locomotives there if not using road transport. These are a substantial modification and paperwork cost. If we limit ourselves to locomotives already suitable for main line work they are much fewer in number and in a lot of cases very busy to begin with and wouldn't be the point of the service you have outlined.

Again, I assumed a permanent establishment of locomotives and stock. There is an interesting question of how little you would need on the one hand, and how much could be accommodated on the other. There would also have to be some understanding of who pays for what: for example, if I own a locomotive, do I pay the operator for providing somewhere where I can stable my locomotive - but is this offset when they pay me for using my loco to pull their train?

Signalling /train protection is also an issue. Safety must of course be the first priority - and as (ordinary) mainlines get faster, the incompatibility of aging preserved locomotives with 21st century systems (in cab signalling?) will be an increasing problem. But with a speed limited S&C (am I right in thinking it goes no faster than 75 mph?) would heritage era signalling and on train equipment be adequate for safe operation?

- Facilities at both ends of the line; water supply & coal supply as well as methods to turn locomotives have all been lost to time and no longer being required. Putting them back in place isn't going to be cheap when the land has already been used for other things.

Quite. This would be a similarity to 'normal' preserved lines - the facilities would have to be built.

- Finally profitability (or at least break even), steam is expensive to run and I'm not convinced a weekly service for example would actually sell enough tickets one the novelty factor had worn off.

And there's the challenge: the customer proposition (enjoy a day travelling on a 'real' railway / take our old-fashioned express to and from a day out in Carlisle /etc) would be very different from the conventional steam branch line offering. It would be (euphemism) challenging to make it work.

 

[Harpers Tate]

It does highlight a shortcoming (MO) in the way the railway is run. It doesn't ever distinguish between functional travel (I'm at A and I want to be at B) and travel where the journey itself is the destination. The S&C is a prime example and there are very probably others. I'm not suggesting there is zero A to B travel here; not at all; but there is surely a high proportion who come just for the ride. And catering for those people* using the same miserable* rolling stock as enjoyed by true commuters, isn't the way to milk that market. There is surely there is a case for true tourist train operations in such locations - whether it be steam, or other train but better equipped for sightseeing.

* The last time I went that way, there were a bunch of (I think) Russians, who were enjoying their experience having travelled a quarter of the way round the world to do it as follows: 2 x GWR liveried class 153, rammed full and standing. They were standing, crouching down in a forlorn attempt to gain a glimpse of the passing countryside, peering from ducked heads between the window top and the high seat backs over the other travellers. Somehow, I doubt that they will ever return to do that trip again...... I wouldn't!

 

[Ken H]

If i was going to do specials on the S&C I would do it with legacy diesels. I am sure a Cl37 + 4 mk2's would be a lot cheaper to operate than steam. operate it between Easter and September, on Saturdays and perhaps Sundays. I think that is more lakely to make money than steam.

Can you run steaam under the wires from leeds to Skipton?

S&C is 60MPH Skipton - Carlisle.

 

[edwin_m]

I would have thought if this can work on the Mallaig line then in principle it could work on the S&C, though perhaps restricted to selected weekends rather than daily. Would the Worth Valley be able to offer suitable servicing facilities for the southern end at least?

 

[yorksrob]

It does highlight a shortcoming (MO) in the way the railway is run. It doesn't ever distinguish between functional travel (I'm at A and I want to be at B) and travel where the journey itself is the destination. The S&C is a prime example and there are very probably others. I'm not suggesting there is zero A to B travel here; not at all; but there is surely a high proportion who come just for the ride. And catering for those people* using the same miserable* rolling stock as enjoyed by true commuters, isn't the way to milk that market. There is surely there is a case for true tourist train operations in such locations - whether it be steam, or other train but better equipped for sightseeing.

* The last time I went that way, there were a bunch of (I think) Russians, who were enjoying their experience having travelled a quarter of the way round the world to do it as follows: 2 x GWR liveried class 153, rammed full and standing. They were standing, crouching down in a forlorn attempt to gain a glimpse of the passing countryside, peering from ducked heads between the window top and the high seat backs over the other travellers. Somehow, I doubt that they will ever return to do that trip again...... I wouldn't!

There's an element of truth in that for the S&C.

They do try and put the 158's on, which are a perfectly acceptable way to view the scenery IMO and a cut above the usual commuter stock, so long as they aren't too crowded. But there are just too many two carriage services on the route which ought to be four, or at least three.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If i was going to do specials on the S&C I would do it with legacy diesels. I am sure a Cl37 + 4 mk2's would be a lot cheaper to operate than steam. operate it between Easter and September, on Saturdays and perhaps Sundays. I think that is more lakely to make money than steam.

Can you run steaam under the wires from leeds to Skipton?

S&C is 60MPH Skipton - Carlisle.

Perhaps a compromise of diesel* from Leeds to Skipton where the kettle takes over would solve some of those issues?

*= or, seeing as we're in the Speculative Ideas section, heritage AC haulage!

 

[lyndhurst25]

Either regular steam or classic diesels on the Settle & Carlisle would be a winner.

Didn't West Coast Railways plan to do a regular S&C steam service at one point? I seem to recall that that half-built shed at Hellifield had something to do with the plans. Wasn't there some kind of industrial accident there, followed a HSE prosecution and the place getting abandoned unfinished. Is my memory correct?

What are the DRS 37s + Mk2 coaches doing since they finished in the Cumbrian Coast line at the end of last year? Arriva Northern used to run similar stock on the S&C and it would be great to see it back, if it could be made to work reliably.

 

[JonathanH]

In what way is 'the Dalesman' not already offering a regular steam service over the Settle & Carlisle line? The fare charged suggests what the economics of running a steam train over this route might be and when enough people are willing to make such a operation viable

https://www.westcoastrailways.co.uk/thedalesman/dalesman-steam-experience.cfm

 

[30907]

Can you run steaam under the wires from leeds to Skipton?

Yes, though the majority of S and C trains access Hellifield from the L&Y. Carnforth-Redmire doubleheaded through Saltaire a week ago most recently. It avoided Leeds but I don't think there's an actual ban there, just lack of paths.

 

[Iskra]

In what way is 'the Dalesman' not already offering a regular steam service over the Settle & Carlisle line? The fare charged suggests what the economics of running a steam train over this route might be and when enough people are willing to make such a operation viable

https://www.westcoastrailways.co.uk/thedalesman/dalesman-steam-experience.cfm

This. It already has a regular steam service. No point having one all year round, so let private business deal with all the risk and only run it when there is actual demand.

 

[6Gman]

There is no bar on steam "under the wires", just some extra requirements.

Not quite sure what the OP is really suggesting, but if the demand was there surely somebody would be trying it?

 

[tbtc]

Would the Worth Valley be able to offer suitable servicing facilities for the southern end at least?

That seems the best way to do it, IMHO - running a Worth Valley - Keighley - Skipton - Settle - Carlisle service (and return), maybe start it every Saturday morning in the six "summer" months but then see if demand makes a Friday/Sunday service attractive.

Maybe aim to get the service back to Oxenhope by around 16:00 so that it'd be in daylight all year round (no point running steam along the scenic S&C if in the dark).

Plenty of scope for variety of rolling stock, no reason it all has to be steam, but I think I'd start/finish at Oxenhope so as to avoid the potential for steam to disrupt things at Leeds station. Maybe review it after a couple of years if trains can be proved to be reliable enough.

How to make it profitable? A charge on anyone sticking their head out of the windows - could make big profits from that, if properly enforced...

(makes more sense than HSTs up the S&C, direct services to St Pancras or any of the Usual Suspects anyhow!)

 

[Bevan Price]

I think that traction knowledge is largely a diesel era concept. Once they qualified for main line running, crews were usually expected to drive almost any type of steam loco, even if they had never seen one before.

But, I fear the idea of a regular daily steam service between Leeds & Carlisle is financially unviable. A once weekly service from Easter to early October might have a chance, but would probably be better with a small fleet of new-build steam locos - maintained by a "national" operator, rather than by a heritage railway.

 

[Iskra]

Guys there is a regular steam service, several times a week all summer provided from WCRC at Carnforth. The Fellsman.

 

[30907]

That seems the best way to do it, IMHO - running a Worth Valley - Keighley - Skipton - Settle - Carlisle service (and return), maybe start it every Saturday morning in the six "summer" months but then see if demand makes a Friday/Sunday service attractive.

Maybe aim to get the service back to Oxenhope by around 16:00 so that it'd be in daylight all year round (no point running steam along the scenic S&C if in the dark).

Plenty of scope for variety of rolling stock, no reason it all has to be steam, but I think I'd start/finish at Oxenhope so as to avoid the potential for steam to disrupt things at Leeds station. Maybe review it after a couple of years if trains can be proved to be reliable enough.

Leaving aside the financial issues, and the regular weekday steam trains,
1. Using the KWVR both limits your load and complicates the return trip - the second of the Bahamas trips ran to Kirkstall to gain the down line back to Keighley, I presume because the previous week's use of the crossover at Keighley had caused problems - and the frequency of services there means you can't realistically access the KWVR before 20.00.
2. The S and C is already busy with steam on Saturdays - yesterday 3 separate workings apparently - which appear to be "profitable."

 

[edwin_m]

Is the connection at Keighley even authorised for passenger use? I was thinking more of using the facilities there to stable and service the steam locos.

 

[Ken H]

maybe a preston - carlise return on summer Sundays would be better. have a stop at Hellifield to allow people from leeds to change onto it.

but the main bit of hellifield station platforms are fenced off

Carlisl has a triangle for turning the engine, I think

 

[xotGD]

Perhaps a compromise of diesel* from Leeds to Skipton where the kettle takes over would solve some of those issues?

*= or, seeing as we're in the Speculative Ideas section, heritage AC haulage!

I like the idea of being able to commute behind a Roarer!

As others have said, there is no shortage of steam hauled services over the S&C but making the regular Northern services a more tourist-friendly experience would be good. I suggest short sets of Mark 4s with a 67 up front.

 

[Ken H]

I like the idea of being able to commute behind a Roarer!

As others have said, there is no shortage of steam hauled services over the S&C but making the regular Northern services a more tourist-friendly experience would be good. I suggest short sets of Mark 4s with a 67 up front.

pair of 37's up front. preferably the ones without a silencer!

 

[30907]

Is the connection at Keighley even authorised for passenger use? I was thinking more of using the facilities there to stable and service the steam locos.

The two Bahamas trips in February used it with pax on board, so yes. There's a shortage of alternative servicing facilities for coaching stock, though - Neville Hill is a bit busy! - which is why most stuff runs from Carnforth.

 

[Ken H]

The two Bahamas trips in February used it with pax on board, so yes. There's a shortage of alternative servicing facilities for coaching stock, though - Neville Hill is a bit busy! - which is why most stuff runs from Carnforth.

so a weekly carnforth -hellifield - carlisle - cumbrian coast trip.
or carnforth -preston - clitheroe - settle - carlisle and return, so no hellifield reversal.

or diesel at one end, Steam engine at other.
Carnforth - Skipton with the diesel at the front. Sell tickets for the ECS run to make a few extra bob

skipton-carlisle with the Steam engine up front

engines swap ends at Carlisle. use the triangle to turn the steam engne (Is there a turntable at Carlisle?)

Reverse itinery back to carnforth.

Need to leave Skipton about 10:30, back by about 16:30.

Could you put in a few stops. Settle and Appleby, and sell part route tickets.

I would do this on a Sunday.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Posting this in the full knowledge that this is the Speculative board...

Problem: although a lot of mainline steam locomotives are preserved, there's nowhere really appropriate to run them: preserved lines are short and limited to 25 mph running. And per threads on the preservation board, I gather heavy locos are not good for lightly laid track. Running on regular mainlines is tricky in that they are busy, and by today's standards even express steam engines are slow and hard to schedule.

Solution: adopt the Settle and Carlisle line to be a (mainly) steam worked railway. Make sure the existing timetable is maintained for 'everyday' use, but add steam hauled services: this could give a mix of express and slow workings, giving an attractive visitor experience. Regular service runs throughout the year, augmented by steam when there is customer demand.

Please now point out all the flaws in my thinking...

The travelling public do not relish a journey on a Mk1, even if the alternative is a Sprinter or Pacer. However, steam would be an excellent attraction, perhaps with round trips via Maryport.

 

[30907]

carnforth -preston - clitheroe - settle - carlisle and return, so no hellifield reversal.

That's the current Dalesman. I like the idea of returning via the Cumbrian Coast though, if Northern would cooperate in getting passengers back to their starting point (Preston/Blackburn...)

or diesel at one end, Steam engine at other.
Carnforth - Skipton with the diesel at the front. Sell tickets for the ECS run to make a few extra bob

skipton-carlisle with the Steam engine up front

engines swap ends at Carlisle. use the triangle to turn the steam engne (Is there a turntable at Carlisle?)
Reverse itinery back to carnforth..

There's no turntable at Carlisle, the triangle does the job. Disadvantage with this is that Carnforth isn't the best starting point from the punters' viewpoint (Skipton is better but it may be difficult to platform the train), hence the Dalesman doong its almost-circular route.

 

[Peter Kelford]

That's the current Dalesman. I like the idea of returning via the Cumbrian Coast though, if Northern would cooperate in getting passengers back to their starting point (Preston/Blackburn...)



There's no turntable at Carlisle, the triangle does the job. Disadvantage with this is that Carnforth isn't the best starting point from the punters' viewpoint (Skipton is better but it may be difficult to platform the train), hence the Dalesman doong its almost-circular route.

It's quite difficult to get to Carnforth you either take the M6 to junction 35, A601(M), left at the roundabout, cross the next roundabout, under the railway bridge and into town, where a passenger would have to navigate a narrow crossroads and traffic light. It can be blocked during normal traffic hours, let alone when a few hundred people want to turn right at roughly the same time. Even once they manage to turn right, the car park is not that big.

 

[bussnapperwm]

* The last time I went that way, there were a bunch of (I think) Russians, who were enjoying their experience having travelled a quarter of the way round the world to do it as follows: 2 x GWR liveried class 153, rammed full and standing. They were standing, crouching down in a forlorn attempt to gain a glimpse of the passing countryside, peering from ducked heads between the window top and the high seat backs over the other travellers. Somehow, I doubt that they will ever return to do that trip again...... I wouldn't!

You sure that's not just an alibi for some future poisoning plot similar to Salisbury?

[Russian accented broken English] "We are innocent Russian tourist looking at world famous Settle Carlisle Railway with its imposing Ribblehead Viaduct,
tovarishch." [/Russian accented broken English]