Permanent middle shifts

[BWB]

Hi all

Just wondering if anyone has been able to get permanent middle shifts (i.e. more 9-5)? If so, how?

I know being a driver is mainly shift work but as I’m thinking about an offer I’ve received, I am worrying about shift work and the effect it will have on family life.

Before anyone jumps on me, I realise that being a driver and shift work go hand in hand, and this is why I want to explore any options as I know some drivers do have considerate turns. I just don’t know the circumstances and wanted to find out a little bit of information. It would be best to explore this now before accepting a role and taking a place from someone who wouldn’t bat an eye at shifts.

I am asking as my circumstances have changed since first applying about 2.5 years ago.

Thanks for any responses.

 

[Twotwo]

Not really heard of a middle shift swap. It's either earlies or lates. And the earliest starts and late finishes would depend on your depots ts & cs.

 

[ComUtoR]

Hi all-

Welcome to the Forum, I hope nothing funny happened on the way here.....

Just wondering if anyone has been able to get permanent middle shifts (i.e. more 9-5)? If so, how?

'Permanent' shift changes are known as being 'accommodated' and can happen for a number of reasons.

I know being a driver is mainly shift work but as I’m thinking about an offer I’ve received, I am worrying about shift work and the effect it will have on family life.

It both sucks, blows, and is hugely advantageous. Shifts are a nightmare for sure and I understand the worry. For me, its been a blessing and a curse as my kids have grown up. There are times where shifts work in your favour and being one of the only Dads on the School run is a little odd at times. I've missed just as many School events as I've attended but no different to many many other parents working a standard 9-5.

I've missed some significant family events but gained some great long weekends and been able to attend other family stuff that happens midweek, Dr's appointments and such. There really is a rough to every smooth but I've found that the work/life balance can be maintained. I'm currently more 9-5 and I'm struggling.

I am asking as my circumstances have changed since first applying about 2.5 years ago.

Thanks for any responses.

Life changes. Almost 20yrs later and my kids are grown up. Life now is very different to when they were ankle biting little so and so's. They have grown up with me working shifts so its probably a different experience to others but they fully understand nowadays and its our family normal. Its all about adapting and being open with that crazy work/life balance.

 

[Red18]

Probably best to consider your offer and not go driving if you have doubts over shift work.
Surely the question of shift work came up during the application process (or have you not applied yet?)
Once qualified it is possible to do permanent early or late shifts but this is dependent on finding a colleague in the same link, on the same rest day pattern and willing to do the opposite shift to you.
in my experience considerate turns are for those who for medical or family reasons cannot work the normal shift patterns and quite often these are only relatively short term arrangements. I don't think most TOC's have 9 - 5 shifts available otherwise we would all be doing them.

 

[skyhigh]

You can sometimes arrange what's termed 'accommodated working', essentially when you only work certain jobs with times that meet your requirements (and I know of someone who only has mid-shifts as part of that). However - at my TOC at least - you need to have been in the job for a certain length of time before requesting this and you need to have a very good reason for it to be accepted. You won't be able to do it as soon as you start and there's no guarantee you'll ever be accepted for it.

It's generally easier to arrange permanent lates/earlies - however you will need to find someone who signs the same routes as you and is willing to work the opposite to you (so permanent lates if you want permanent earlies for example).

Ultimately as you say train driving is predominantly a shift based job and there's no easy way to get out of that. Personally I enjoy shift work and have plenty of time to spend with family on the regular long weekends we get (plus I don't take work home with me, so any time at home is free time). I would think it over carefully before doing anything.

 

[Undiscovered]

While you can arrange accommodated links/working, you may be subject to a reduction in pay, as you're no longer working the full spectrum of shifts. Therefore, you no longer attract "unsocial hours payments'. This has taken place for a guard in our TOC. The loss of pay is significant, but they can now balance an extremely challenging home situation with work.

They've been with the company several years, had a clean record and excellent representation from the Union, as well as considerable support from their depot.

 

[dctraindriver]

In some respects that’s where the money comes in. I can’t imagine you’ll get the opportunity to work mids all the time. Most at my depot prefer the early shifts but mids seem quite popular. The responses above mine show how different each company/depot can be. Best place to start is where you will work and speak to your union rep.

You may need to seek help from family to assist as and when. Many do on the railway.

I’ve edited this to add remember the first good few months are mainly 9-5 based. That could be extended due to the ramifications of Covid and backlog of training so realistically it could be sometime till you’re in the chair? Maybe your circumstances will have changed in the next year or so?

My advice is take the job and deal with the other stuff as and when. And if you can’t make it work walk away. Chances like this don’t come round often if you’re offered a chance.

 

[L401CJF]

Personally for me, I worked set hours 9-5 for a while, then 8 years ago started shift work as a bus driver. I couldnt go back to 9-5 now. Ive recently started as a conductor with a TOC and going back to office hours for training was awful for me! Back onto shifts now finally and its brilliant. Yes you miss some things, but i like the variety you get with shift work. Particularly like having time off in the week - great for going out when its quiet, long weekends are great too. Also good if on lates to have a whole day to yourself before work, or an early finish with the whole day ahead when youre finished.

Usually easy enough to find a swop if you need a bit of a later start or earlier finish too.

Like I said, I couldnt go back to office hours, but shift work doesnt suit everybody!

Edit- Just to add I have 2 children in primary school, and lucky enough to have a wife who works hours that allow her to do the school run, which is a huge help, although im usually around to either drop them off or pick them up which is nice.

 

[whoosh]

Hello @BWB

Once qualified it is possible to do permanent early or late shifts but this is dependent on finding a colleague in the same link, on the same rest day pattern and willing to do the opposite shift to you.

Whilst quite often a possibility, it isn't always. It depends on the roster at the TOC/depot you'll be working at. There are some rosters where it's difficult to swap a week's work as the shifts are intertwined with the previous or following weeks (Thameslink), or where the number of rest days can be different (TransPennine Express), which limits your options.

I’ve edited this to add remember the first good few months are mainly 9-5 based. That could be extended due to the ramifications of Covid and backlog of training so realistically it could be sometime till you’re in the chair.

Whilst there is a period of time 9-5 in the training school, the bit after that is often fraught with late notice changes as to what time you are going to work, as you get passed around between Driver Instructors as they become available/go on leave/one actually based at your depot becomes available/who then might swap duties with someone.


Not all accomodation requests are granted, sometimes even quite reasonable ones!

It depends what circumstances at home have changed really. Are you talking about you and your partner separating and you have the kids to stay with you every other week, for example?
Probably very difficult.


If it's more an anxious trepidation about shift work, then the following threads might be worth a read:

About to start driver training and not excited

Hello. I felt I had to come on here and share my feelings about being offered a trainee driver contract. I was hoping to hear from anyone who may have felt the same way before starting a railway career. To give some background, I've been in the application process a couple of years and...

www.railforums.co.uk

Am I mad to turn down guard job?

Predicament time. Literally have 48 hours to decide to accept or decline post. My dilemma is stay in a not so well paid job that I love, or take a chance in a well paid job that I also may love. It's a case of fearing the unknown. The money is not a big issue for me but what worries me is...

www.railforums.co.uk

Maybe you just need to see a roster to be able to see and understand what you'd be dealing with?

What TOC is it, and perhaps someone can help?

 

[bramling]

Hi all

Just wondering if anyone has been able to get permanent middle shifts (i.e. more 9-5)? If so, how?

I know being a driver is mainly shift work but as I’m thinking about an offer I’ve received, I am worrying about shift work and the effect it will have on family life.

Before anyone jumps on me, I realise that being a driver and shift work go hand in hand, and this is why I want to explore any options as I know some drivers do have considerate turns. I just don’t know the circumstances and wanted to find out a little bit of information. It would be best to explore this now before accepting a role and taking a place from someone who wouldn’t bat an eye at shifts.

I am asking as my circumstances have changed since first applying about 2.5 years ago.

Thanks for any responses.

London Underground have middle shifts which essentially gravitate around 9-5 or similar. From what I gather, such shifts aren’t particularly hard to get by means of swaps or syndicate arrangements — earlies are the ones which are more sought after. In the case of London it may well be that such shifts aren’t massively popular as for anyone living more than a stone’s throw from their depot as it will mean a busier commute.

The difficulty is it can be awkward to rely on getting a particular shift. Swaps are okay if the required shifts exist and people are willing to give them up, but things can change. There are hardship arrangements which might be agreed to, but again this isn’t sustainable over time, and indeed can lead to some element of resentment from others, so really I’d say only good for emergencies. New starters do also tend to be expected to be not picky about what they do.

 

[theking]

Probably best to consider your offer and not go driving if you have doubts over shift work.

This is the correct answer.

Yes you may be able to swap shifts to mostly middles but there will always be one shift you can't swap and then you'll be driving with that worry in your head and you'll be asking to have a sol incident.

Also training will be difficult enough without you worrying about whether you can do middles all the time and during training that won't be possible anyway as you will have to follow the line of your di because depot moves and shunts aren't always done during the day.

Plus I doubt your colleagues will be happy if you go in as a newbie with set hours.

To be honest shift work is probably one of the most major things with driving so if you can't do it maybe the railway isn't for you.

 

[GemGem]

I am a mum of two small girls and do shifts. I personally prefer earlies but do lates and middles also. Find the middles more tiring than the others. It can be hard at times. The kids have a bad night etc and you’re a bit tired but honestly you adapt.

 

[ExRes]

When I used to travel to London each day I loathed the 9 to 5 shifts, travel in by cattle truck, travel home by cattle truck, it's something to think about when making a decision

 

[LoogaBarooga]

You won't exactly be endearing yourself to your new colleagues if you're looking to be accommodated straight off the bat.

I've heard of a few staff at my TOC who have been given these family friendly hours and they aren't well liked. They are basically blacklisted in the bothy.

 

[wobman]

It's may well depend on the toc and depot, being accommodated is usually for a short term specific reason I've found.
I have a swap for permanent earlies, but it wasn't easy to arrange and it's reviewed every year by resources.

If you have doubts about shift work and working the very unsociable shifts being a train driver is not the job for you. I never get used to the shifts, I just tolerate them to be honest.
My depot have 2am to 12pm starts on earlies and finishes from 10.30am to 20.00pm, lates can finish at 6am on the night shed jobs.

You take the good with the bad, it's not great for your family life and social life but it's the price you pay for being a train driver. It all depends how bad you want hhe job.....

 

[BWB]

Thanks everyone for your considered comments and insights.

Since applying well over two years ago, I’ve become a mum to twins (as well as having an older school aged child) and now also have parental care responsibilities. I’ve also started a work from home job, 4 days a week, which is flexible and family friendly (comparable pay, but obviously pension is nothing like the rail).

My husband is supportive but the guilt of shifting more of the childcare responsibilities to him is overwhelming. Plus the down time I will have when husband and kids are in school/nursery seems unfair, and then I’ll be working evenings/weekends and missing them when they are home.

How do I support my mum who is now living with us when I’m all over the place with hours? How can I take her to appointments etc in the same way (her physio appointments are currently fixed for my non-working day)?

I am really struggling to see how it will all work. It was very different circumstances a few years ago.

 

[coxxy]

If you are already coming up with numerous reasons for why you won't be able to do the job, then I really don't understand how you are considering it..

 

[Flange Squeal]

I am really struggling to see how it will all work. It was very different circumstances a few years ago.

In short, it probably wouldn't. The nature of the railway - particularly frontline jobs - is that it's a 24/7 industry. Even if the depot you applied to has middle shifts, you'd still have to accumulate your driving hours following an instructor on their roster. There's generally a minimum number of night hours you must do - typically 250-300 physical driving hours, depending on the TOC, so just that part of training alone can take a good few months. Then when qualified, IF you managed to find people on the same rest day patterns who you could swap with who don't want their own sociable hour shifts, there are obviously generally more earlies and lates overall at depots so there my well be times when none of the people on your rest day pattern are on middles. Then with rosters and diagrams changing with the timetables, every six months free day patterns and diagrams can change and throw things out. For example the depot I'm at used to be primarily earlies/lates with just one or two mids, before one roster change randomly saw us gain a load of middle turns. Subsequent rosters have seen these reduce in number again, so even if the depot you're looking at now had a good few mids, it doesn't mean it'll stay that way in 6, 12, 18, 24 etc months time. Also, depots can get bigger/smaller and establishments change as work is gained/lost/redistributed, so the number of lines on the depot's roster then changes and you find with a month's notice yours (or your regular swaps) rest day patterns no longer match. This sort of thing also means some depots don't have an even cycle over the roster, so people you may match with initially may not after a month or two, and you then have to hope someone who comes over the top of the roster also wants rid of their middles!

It's probably not what you want to hear, but sadly it sounds like your circumstances probably won't tie in very well with starting a career as a train driver.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Thanks everyone for your considered comments and insights.

Since applying well over two years ago, I’ve become a mum to twins (as well as having an older school aged child) and now also have parental care responsibilities. I’ve also started a work from home job, 4 days a week, which is flexible and family friendly (comparable pay, but obviously pension is nothing like the rail).

My husband is supportive but the guilt of shifting more of the childcare responsibilities to him is overwhelming. Plus the down time I will have when husband and kids are in school/nursery seems unfair, and then I’ll be working evenings/weekends and missing them when they are home.

How do I support my mum who is now living with us when I’m all over the place with hours? How can I take her to appointments etc in the same way (her physio appointments are currently fixed for my non-working day)?

I am really struggling to see how it will all work. It was very different circumstances a few years ago.

I’m going to have to be brutally honest here and say that from what you’ve written, this job truly is not suitable to your circumstances.

 

[BWB]

I’m going to have to be brutally honest here and say that from what you’ve written, this job truly is not suitable to your circumstances.

I fear this is the case. I think it’s hard letting go of a dream. Perhaps it may lie in my future (and I don’t say that blithely but with utmost sincerity).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2022 ==

If you are already coming up with numerous reasons for why you won't be able to do the job, then I really don't understand how you are considering it..

Hope, I guess.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2022 ==

In short, it probably wouldn't. The nature of the railway - particularly frontline jobs - is that it's a 24/7 industry. Even if the depot you applied to has middle shifts, you'd still have to accumulate your driving hours following an instructor on their roster. There's generally a minimum number of night hours you must do - typically 250-300 physical driving hours, depending on the TOC, so just that part of training alone can take a good few months. Then when qualified, IF you managed to find people on the same rest day patterns who you could swap with who don't want their own sociable hour shifts, there are obviously generally more earlies and lates overall at depots so there my well be times when none of the people on your rest day pattern are on middles. Then with rosters and diagrams changing with the timetables, every six months free day patterns and diagrams can change and throw things out. For example the depot I'm at used to be primarily earlies/lates with just one or two mids, before one roster change randomly saw us gain a load of middle turns. Subsequent rosters have seen these reduce in number again, so even if the depot you're looking at now had a good few mids, it doesn't mean it'll stay that way in 6, 12, 18, 24 etc months time. Also, depots can get bigger/smaller and establishments change as work is gained/lost/redistributed, so the number of lines on the depot's roster then changes and you find with a month's notice yours (or your regular swaps) rest day patterns no longer match. This sort of thing also means some depots don't have an even cycle over the roster, so people you may match with initially may not after a month or two, and you then have to hope someone who comes over the top of the roster also wants rid of their middles!

It's probably not what you want to hear, but sadly it sounds like your circumstances probably won't tie in very well with starting a career as a train driver.

I think you’re correct, I don’t think this career is right at this time in my life. I say that with great difficultly as I really wanted it. To give it up is hard to accept.

 

[skyhigh]

Thanks everyone for your considered comments and insights.

Since applying well over two years ago, I’ve become a mum to twins (as well as having an older school aged child) and now also have parental care responsibilities. I’ve also started a work from home job, 4 days a week, which is flexible and family friendly (comparable pay, but obviously pension is nothing like the rail).

My husband is supportive but the guilt of shifting more of the childcare responsibilities to him is overwhelming. Plus the down time I will have when husband and kids are in school/nursery seems unfair, and then I’ll be working evenings/weekends and missing them when they are home.

How do I support my mum who is now living with us when I’m all over the place with hours? How can I take her to appointments etc in the same way (her physio appointments are currently fixed for my non-working day)?

I am really struggling to see how it will all work. It was very different circumstances a few years ago.

Something else to consider is that the initial training (particularly the first 6-10 months) is intense. While you will mostly be working office hours in the classroom, you will need to put lots of effort in at home to make sure you cement the teaching. It eats up all of your spare time and mentally can be very draining. If you're already distracted by things outside of work, you will find it very difficult to complete the training.

 

[Emmsie]

Shift work won't necessarily mean your partner is doing more parenting. He'll be doing more solo parenting but then so will you. On the plus side it's likely your children will spend less time in childcare and more time at home with a parent (obviously dependent on how your current circumstances work) I'm pretty sure a lot of the Male drivers have a wife that works full time and don't give a 2nd thought to whether the division of parenting is fair. Shifts are great (mostly) although they do take some getting used to. The actual training would be a bigger concern.