Period Return Potential Issue

[extendedpaul]

I would like a little advice before I throw away an "unused" return part of a ticket. I don't want to be accused of reusing the ticket but I can foresee how that could happen.

I currently travel fairly regularly between two stations in SE England. The return journey involves a train from Kent to London, across London by tube and another train to my destination. Most trips are made using an off peak day return but occasionally I travel back a day or two later so buy an off peak period return which costs a couple of pounds extra.

On 27 September I bought a period ticket ( return valid till 26 October) but unexpectedly got a lift back to Kent. Yesterday I made the journey again with a day return (which costs only pennies more than a single). I had the unused part of the period return in my railcard wallet and I inadvertently put that ticket through the automated barrier when I began my return journey. I realised I had done this almost immediately and used the day return ticket for the remainder of my journey.

The ticket has been through one station barrier but not used for an underground journey or for travel back to Kent. If I now try to start a journey from Liverpool Street to Kent will the ticket be rejected by the underground station barriers and/or by the barrier at the mainline station and could I be accused of reusing the ticket ?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I would like a little advice before I throw away an "unused" return part of a ticket. I don't want to be accused of reusing the ticket but I can foresee how that could happen.

I currently travel fairly regularly between two stations in SE England. The return journey involves a train from Kent to London, across London by tube and another train to my destination. Most trips are made using an off peak day return but occasionally I travel back a day or two later so buy an off peak period return which costs a couple of pounds extra.

On 27 September I bought a period ticket ( return valid till 26 October) but unexpectedly got a lift back to Kent. Yesterday I made the journey again with a day return (which costs only pennies more than a single). I had the unused part of the period return in my railcard wallet and I inadvertently put that ticket through the automated barrier when I began my return journey. I realised I had done this almost immediately and used the day return ticket for the remainder of my journey.

The ticket has been through one station barrier but not used for an underground journey or for travel back to Kent. If I now try to start a journey from Liverpool Street to Kent will the ticket be rejected by the underground station barriers and/or by the barrier at the mainline station and could I be accused of reusing the ticket ?

It may be rejected at the barriers, but ultimately the burden of proof if any accusations are made against you, or travel is denied, will be on the train company. If you can show the valid ticket you held for the journey which you started by accidentally using the period return, this will be a good 'alibi' to any claim of re-use.

I would certainly not consider throwing away the ticket. The fact that you have used it in a ticket barrier at the origin of your journey in no way conclusively proves that its validity has been used - use at the destination, or at an intermediate station, would certainly be harder to explain.

 

[Silverdale]

The fact that you have used it in a ticket barrier at the origin of your journey in no way conclusively proves that its validity has been used - use at the destination, or at an intermediate station, would certainly be harder to explain.

I think this is the crux of it.

How is the circumstance different to having broken your return journey using that ticket at the first station the train stopped at, then continued using the day ticket? There will be no evidence of using the period ticket to actually exit a barrier at that station, or the day ticket to enter, but so what? Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence and in any case you don't need to exit/re-enter at a barrier or even alight from the train, to continue your journey using the day ticket. From at least that station to your destination, the period ticket still has validity and can be used. I don't see how you can be hindered from using it that way.

 

[extendedpaul]

It may be rejected at the barriers, but ultimately the burden of proof if any accusations are made against you, or travel is denied, will be on the train company. If you can show the valid ticket you held for the journey which you started by accidentally using the period return, this will be a good 'alibi' to any claim of re-use.

I would certainly not consider throwing away the ticket. The fact that you have used it in a ticket barrier at the origin of your journey in no way conclusively proves that its validity has been used - use at the destination, or at an intermediate station, would certainly be harder to explain.

Thanks. Good advice and I do still have the return part of yesterday's day return ticket.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think this is the crux of it.

How is the circumstance different to having broken your return journey using that ticket at the first station the train stopped at, then continued using the day ticket? There will be no evidence of using the period ticket to actually exit a barrier at that station, or the day ticket to enter, but so what? Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence and in any case you don't need to exit/re-enter at a barrier or even alight from the train, to continue your journey using the day ticket. From at least that station to your destination, the period ticket still has validity and can be used. I don't see how you can be hindered from using it that way.

I agree - use in a barrier does not extinguish your contractual rights in any way. It does, however, create an evidential issue as to whether you have, or have not, yet used your contractual rights. The train company will almost always default to assuming you have used your ticket, and it will be slow and laborious to obtain recourse if you are refused travel. It is much easier to enable travel by presenting an "alibi" to the claim of re-use.

 

[Haywain]

I'll keep this much simpler than others. The likelihood of any railway staff believing the ticket has been used simply because a ticket is rejected by a barrier is fairly slim, and the facts of your particular situation are as near as dammit to undetectable. You will, in my opinion, be able to use the ticket without any real concern because you have not used it yet.

 

[extendedpaul]

Thanks for all the views and advice.

I only hoped to use the ticket from Liverpool Street or possibly Charing Cross later this week. If it is rejected on the London Underground when I insert it in a gateline there I think I just will use my Oyster card instead rather than try to argue about its validity. Similarly at Victoria if it is rejected to get through the Southeastern side I will just buy another ticket. I would feel too uncomfortable being accused of ticket reuse to try to convince a staff member what has happened.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks for all the views and advice.

I only hoped to use the ticket from Liverpool Street or possibly Charing Cross later this week. If it is rejected on the London Underground when I insert it in a gateline there I think I just will use my Oyster card instead rather than try to argue about its validity. Similarly at Victoria if it is rejected to get through the Southeastern side I will just buy another ticket. I would feel too uncomfortable being accused of ticket reuse to try to convince a staff member what has happened.

I would not take that approach, and certainly you will not see the money for the Underground fare back if you don't at least try to use the ticket. But it's your call at the end of the day...

 

[Silverdale]

The train company will almost always default to assuming you have used your ticket, and it will be slow and laborious to obtain recourse if you are refused travel. It is much easier to enable travel by presenting an "alibi" to the claim of re-use.

Not disagreeing, but use of a completely separate and unrelated valid ticket to complete the return journey, in itself, shouldn't create a suspicion.

Only if the OP is being tracked around the network by means other than ticket use (CCTV/face recognition??) could the unusual, but perfectly valid, use of the two tickets in this non-sequential fashion be capable of raising a particular suspicion of anything at all.

Assuming that passengers are not being routinely tracked around the network in Big Brother fashion, why is the OP more likely than any other customer who has broken their journey in more straight forward fashion, to be suspected of re-use of the period ticket? If he needs an "alibi", what does the straight forward breaker of journey need?

 

[extendedpaul]

Not disagreeing, but use of a completely separate and unrelated valid ticket to complete the return journey, in itself, shouldn't create a suspicion.

Only if the OP is being tracked around the network by means other than ticket use (CCTV/face recognition??) could the unusual, but perfectly valid, use of the two tickets in this non-sequential fashion be capable of raising a particular suspicion of anything at all.

Assuming that passengers are not being routinely tracked around the network in Big Brother fashion, why is the OP more likely than any other customer who has broken their journey in more straight forward fashion, to be suspected of re-use of the period ticket? If he needs an "alibi", what does the straight forward breaker of journey need?

I'm not so much concerned about the validity of the ticket as curious whether the date a period return ticket first goes through a ticket barrier is recorded somehow on the magnetic strip. My ticket would normally go through up to six ticket barriers, two on the underground and four on National Rail, all on the same day. It has only been through one National Rail ticket gate in Essex on 6 October and I could save some money by using it next week on 16 October for an underground journey between Liverpool Street and Victoria and for a rail journey between Victoria and North Kent

 

[yorkie]

The ticket has been through one station barrier but not used for an underground journey or for travel back to Kent. If I now try to start a journey from Liverpool Street to Kent will the ticket be rejected by the underground station barriers

1) No, you have not used your cross-London transfer yet so it won't be rejected

and/or by the barrier at the mainline station

2) No.

and could I be accused of reusing the ticket ?

3) No.

(In fact a ticket could be rejected for any number of other reasons, e.g if you held a Railcard and they were doing a manual check of Railcards, or if it became demagnetised etc...)

 

[extendedpaul]

Thanks, Yorkie. Exactly what I needed to know.

 

[sheff1]

The likelihood of any railway staff believing the ticket has been used simply because a ticket is rejected by a barrier is fairly slim

.. unless the station concerned is Southampton !

 

[Clip]

I'll keep this much simpler than others. The likelihood of any railway staff believing the ticket has been used simply because a ticket is rejected by a barrier is fairly slim, and the facts of your particular situation are as near as dammit to undetectable. You will, in my opinion, be able to use the ticket without any real concern because you have not used it yet.

Unless you use Blackpool North station where they have a sign saying do not go through the barriers until your train is ready because if you leave again you wont be allowed re-entry as your ticket is now used and you will have to buy another

 

[Harlequin]

.. unless the station concerned is Southampton !

I quite often take a short break of journey at Southampton Central and my ticket becomes demagnetised around 75% of the time because I invariably have it in my wallet alongside my work pass. Never had a problem there.

 

[robbeech]

Unless you use Blackpool North station where they have a sign saying do not go through the barriers until your train is ready because if you leave again you wont be allowed re-entry as your ticket is now used and you will have to buy another

OT. How long has that sign been there?
I have had to deal with staff there on a number of occasions and am fully aware of their attitude but I haven’t seen that sign. Where does the law stand on that one?

 

[Clip]

OT. How long has that sign been there?
I have had to deal with staff there on a number of occasions and am fully aware of their attitude but I haven’t seen that sign. Where does the law stand on that one?

Been there a good few weeks now - im pretty sure your ticket only loses its validty when you have actually used it to travel.

Its worth noting that IIRC that it doesnt have any northern branding on it either so definitely one they have fashioned themselves If i remember ill take a pic next time

 

[Clip]

Hope this is visible. Ive noticed they also have a penalty fare notice at front of station now too so must be coming online soon

 

[najaB]

Hope this is visible. Ive noticed they also have a penalty fare notice at front of station now too so must be coming online soonView attachment 53875

To be fair to them, nothing they say is incorrect: passing the barrier will mark the ticket as used, and they say that you may have to buy a new ticket, not that you will have to.

 

[robbeech]

There is so little ‘railside’ that for most people there would be no need to go in and through the gateline until they are ready to travel so this issue should affect only a very small number of passengers, and maybe some of those are trying to abuse the system so this could work as a small deterrent. The word ‘may’ is crucial though.

If they arrive quite early and the weather is poor then there is very limited shelter landside so a trip out to the supermarket might prove problematic with staff there as they continue to thrive in their quest to be as monumentally unhelpful and anti passenger as it’s possible to be without a weapon.

 

[Clip]

To be fair to them, nothing they say is incorrect: passing the barrier will mark the ticket as used, and they say that you may have to buy a new ticket, not that you will have to.

True but its unecessary and could make people purchase a new ticket for no reason. Its worth noting that just like them herding passengers with locking the doors, that nowhere elae ive come across on the northern network, do they have such a sign and its not even got northern branding.

 

[yorkie]

To be fair to them, nothing they say is incorrect: passing the barrier will mark the ticket as used, and they say that you may have to buy a new ticket, not that you will have to.

It is a potential cause for concern. It would be interesting to hear of their motives and learn of any incidents where people have been "required to buy a new ticket" to get an understanding of exactly what is going on.

That said, I think any further discussion on the disgraceful state of affairs at Blackpool North takes place on the dedicated thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ost-unfriendly-station-in-the-country.114768/

 

[Bletchleyite]

Been there a good few weeks now - im pretty sure your ticket only loses its validty when you have actually used it to travel.

Its worth noting that IIRC that it doesnt have any northern branding on it either so definitely one they have fashioned themselves If i remember ill take a pic next time

It’s an old Northern one with the branding covered.

 

[185143]

It’s an old Northern one with the branding covered.

It is indeed. First saw that poster about 4 years ago-so nothing new!