People standing in first class

[gazthomas]

I am on a Birmingham New Street to London Euston service in first class which is rammed with people standing who must have standard tickets going to Coventry. Why does Virgin Trains allow this? Easy pickings I would have thought x

 

[AlterEgo]

I am on a Birmingham New Street to London Euston service in first class which is rammed with people standing who must have standard tickets going to Coventry. Why does Virgin Trains allow this? Easy pickings I would have thought x

I wouldn’t call a full and standing Brum to Cov easy pickings at all. They by and large won’t pay and it’s only 20 minutes. If you tried to collect upgrades you’d probably take a very round sum.

 

[gazthomas]

I wouldn’t call a full and standing Brum to Cov easy pickings at all. They by and large won’t pay and it’s only 20 minutes. If you tried to collect upgrades you’d probably take a very round sum.

Why won’t they pay - it’s the rule? They should be consistent in enforcement.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why won’t they pay - it’s the rule? They should be consistent in enforcement.

Because they just won’t pay. I know what the BHM-COV crowd is like, having commuted Birmingham to Milton Keynes for two years.

Firstly if it’s full and standing then the TM may well struggle to move down the train. Secondly, they won’t pay - especially if you have 20-30 people in the same boat in that carriage. The staff will be easily outnumbered by passengers irritated and unwilling to pay - they’ll be emboldened by the first refusal in that crowd - regardless of whether it is due or not.

 

[Qwerty133]

I am on a Birmingham New Street to London Euston service in first class which is rammed with people standing who must have standard tickets going to Coventry. Why does Virgin Trains allow this? Easy pickings I would have thought x

Presumably if first is full and standing the same is occurring in standard. If so no train company is going to want the publicity coming from charging people to stand in first when there was no where to stand in standard...

 

[gazthomas]

People just stood there “defacto”

 

[alistairlees]

Presumably if first is full and standing the same is occurring in standard. If so no train company is going to want the publicity coming from charging people to stand in first when there was no where to stand in standard...

I'd agree. It also happens frequently especially in the evening rush hour from London Bridge on Southeastern too. It is hardly the fault of the passengers - what else are they to do? (Wait for another train is, I guess, an answer. But it's not a good answer - the wait could be 30 minutes - and, in any case, Standard Class and First Class are quite hard to distinguish from the outside on many suburban trains which, combined with irregular stopping positions, makes it difficult to police).

 

[gazthomas]

In this instance the passengers didn't try, they just stood in first class. Why shouldn't they pay for the privilege? On my home line it is made quite clear it is a breach if you do it! I'm not saying it is is right or wrong I'm just looking for consistenecy

 

[island]

I’ve been amongst those people on a BHM-BHI trip, but not by choice. I got on Coach L because the platform staff were giving the station work complete signal, and could not make any progress down the train towards standard class because of standing passengers in the next coaches blocking the way. The train manager twice pushed past everyone to ask the folks further down the train to move down, but I still hadn’t reached coach U by the time we reached Birmingham International.

 

[Hadders]

If they were standing in 1st it's a fair bet that standard was full and standing too.

I'm reminded if a recent VTEC journey between Kings Cross and Stevenage was the whole train was full and standing, proper wedged. The Train Manager made officious announcements demanding that people standing in 1st move - there was nowhere for them to go, even if they wanted to. Eventually he gave up and said that 1st class was suspended unto Stevenage.

 

[sefton]

In this instance the passengers didn't try, they just stood in first class.

You are not being clear whether they were not moving by choice as there was room to move to in standard, or whether standard was full and they could not move.

If it was the latter, then you should thank them rather than complaining. If they had to board through standard and wait for everyone there to squash up more that would inevitably delay the departure of the train.

 

[MG11]

I wouldn’t call a full and standing Brum to Cov easy pickings at all. They by and large won’t pay and it’s only 20 minutes. If you tried to collect upgrades you’d probably take a very round sum.

Why upgrades and not MG11s? It is clearly stated as an offence to travel in First Class accomodation with a Standard Class ticket!

 

[trainophile]

In this instance the passengers didn't try, they just stood in first class. Why shouldn't they pay for the privilege? On my home line it is made quite clear it is a breach if you do it! I'm not saying it is is right or wrong I'm just looking for consistenecy

Not much of a privilege really is it? The main advantage of 1st Class is the more comfortable seats and extra personal space, both of which don't apply if you have to stand. I doubt they would be offered any complimentary drinks or snacks without their tickets being checked, especially if the carriage was wedged, so there's very little difference from the experience of standing anywhere else on the train.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why upgrades and not MG11s? It is clearly stated as an offence to travel in First Class accomodation with a Standard Class ticket!

Firstly, we’re assuming like 99.9% of VTWC trains there’s no RPI on board. Secondly, try MG11’ing someone on a full and standing train when there appears to be no room in standard. That’s a bad idea for a few reasons which hopefully I don’t need to outline.

 

[MG11]

Firstly, we’re assuming like 99.9% of VTWC trains there’s no RPI on board. Secondly, try MG11’ing someone on a full and standing train when there appears to be no room in standard. That’s a bad idea for a few reasons which hopefully I don’t need to outline.

I doubt there are as little RPIs/Os as that on WTWC? Certainly, their sister company EMT has atleast 40% RPOs on their London-Derby-Sheffield services. Stagecoach are usually very good at Revenue Protection.

 

[AlterEgo]

I doubt there are as little RPIs/Os as that on WTWC? Certainly, their sister company EMT has atleast 40% RPOs on their London-Derby-Sheffield services. Stagecoach are usually very good at Revenue Protection.

There really are very few RPIs on VTWC, certainly not riding on trains. I commuted Milton Keynes to Birmingham for two years (as I worked for VTWC) and I can’t recall seeing any on that route, nor any other. I only know they exist from staff briefs. In the context of 30 million passenger journeys the numbers of RPIs is minuscule. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone told me they had less than a dozen.

 

[MG11]

There really are very few RPIs on VTWC, certainly not riding on trains. I commuted Milton Keynes to Birmingham for two years (as I worked for VTWC) and I can’t recall seeing any on that route, nor any other. I only know they exist from staff briefs. In the context of 30 million passenger journeys the numbers of RPIs is minuscule. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone told me they had less than a dozen.

Wow! That's quite interesting. I wonder why they have so little? (Maybe that is a question for a seperate thread though!)

 

[AlterEgo]

Wow! That's quite interesting. I wonder why they have so little? (Maybe that is a question for a seperate thread though!)

Because Virgin are a company that lives almost exclusively off PR and taking people to court isn’t their thing. In a nutshell.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

In this instance the passengers didn't try, they just stood in first class. Why shouldn't they pay for the privilege? On my home line it is made quite clear it is a breach if you do it! I'm not saying it is is right or wrong I'm just looking for consistenecy

If by your location the 'home' line you refer to is Thameslink then using first class is anything but clear. Stopping trains generally have first class declassified they look exactly the same as the fast trains that don't - some trains are fast but are declassified some stopping trains are not declassified. Quite clear to everyone I'm sure.

 

[BluePenguin]

Presumably if first is full and standing the same is occurring in standard. If so no train company is going to want the publicity coming from charging people to stand in first when there was no where to stand in standard...

Exactly! Plus you can hardly charge people to stand, they're hardly getting a "first class experience". I am sure it is annoying for those who have paid but at least they can sit down - in the luxorious leather seats too.

Putting up with a few people standing in the aisle is not worth complaining about. People need to stand somewhere after all and Virgin can't magic more carriages out of the air.

 

[MG11]

If by your location the 'home' line you refer to is Thameslink then using first class is anything but clear. Stopping trains generally have first class declassified they look exactly the same as the fast trains that don't - some trains are fast but are declassified some stopping trains are not declassified. Quite clear to everyone I'm sure.

If you have a Standard ticket then, I would say never enter First Class without something printed that says it is declassified.

 

[SaveECRewards]

If you have a Standard ticket then, I would say never enter First Class without something printed that says it is declassified.

On the class 700s the electronic signs are meant to indicate whether first class is declassified but it often doesn't

 

[Failed Unit]

Why upgrades and not MG11s? It is clearly stated as an offence to travel in First Class accomodation with a Standard Class ticket!

Unless of course it is a great northern class 387, which if you took that view you would lose ⅛ of the capacity of the train.

Luckily the RPIs I have seen dont PF standing passengers just the ones sitting down. The understand with the reduction in seating forced upon the passengers they have no choice (or leave the train).

Saying that intercity is a different kettle of fish. Train crews have never had an issue on VTEC of people in the vestibule during disruption - which wasn’t the case in the OP example. Saying that a bably loaded pendo won’t tilt so Virgin May prefer even distribution.

 

[MCSHF007]

The main advantage of 1st Class is the more comfortable seats and extra personal space

This extra personal space would be somewhat encroached upon by having standees' backsides at face level all down the aisle.

I would imagine some standard class passengers travelling to Coventry may choose to stand in the 1st class rather than sit in the rearmost coaches.

 

[JB_B]

If you have a Standard ticket then, I would say never enter First Class without something printed that says it is declassified.

On the class 700s the electronic signs are meant to indicate whether first class is declassified but it often doesn't

That's right. The chances of normal passengers realising that the rear 1st class on Thameslink 700s is declassified (if they didn't know already) is extremely low.

The declassification "warning message" appears for under five seconds of the standard 40 second message loop - it's only shown in the rear 1st (not elsewhere) and there is no audio announcement. It's not shown at all when the train is at, approaching or departing a station. The message never has time to appear on some shorter journey segments.

You have to park yourself in 1st class for a while before getting confirmation that it's declassified.
( And that's assuming the displays are working at all - on a recent trip we helpfully had 'this train terminates here' for the whole journey. )

It does make for a more interesting mix of passengers, though.

 

[Starmill]

Eventually he gave up and said that 1st class was suspended unto Stevenage

This is the correct course of action under such circumstances, as it means that people with First Class tickets can apply for their partial refund.

 

[sheff1]

If you have a Standard ticket then, I would say never enter First Class without something printed that says it is declassified.

Many people would miss their EMT train at St Pancras if they followed that policy. They would also rather annoy the platform despatch staff.

 

[MG11]

Many people would miss their EMT train at St Pancras if they followed that policy. They would also rather annoy the platform despatch staff.

East Midlands Trains have signage in vestibules of First Class, which clearly state that Standard Class customers are not allowed.

 

[sheff1]

East Midlands Trains have signage in vestibules of First Class, which clearly state that Standard Class customers are not allowed.

Best of luck pointing that out to the platform despatch staff.

 

[MG11]

Best of luck pointing that out to the platform despatch staff.

I'd rather risk being tutted at by platform staff then entering a First Class vestibule and encountering a Revenue Protection Officer!