People Opposed to Contacless Payments - Why?

[Bletchleyite]

But there's a lot to be said for habit and familiarity. I'm a wallet carrier, and have always carried my wallet in the front left pocket; I couldn't imagine walking/sitting comfortably with a wallet or phone in my rear pockets. (And that's quite aside from the fact that pickpocketing a front trouser pocket seems significantly harder than a rear pocket.)

I put my wallet in my back pocket once and sat on it and snapped a credit card clean in half. I agree I don't see why people put it there.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Actually, it is.
A card reader has to be authorised by the bank before anyone is able to use it.
This means that one has to start a company, open a bank account, buy a contactless reader, link it to the bank account, and then have to touch everyone's, err, behind in order to get a few quid. Then, after a few transactions, the reader is blocked, the bank account frozen, and one can say goodbye to a planned vacation on a sunny beach

iZettle readers can be set up within minutes. Including to a normal current account. Admittedly this is against their T&Cs however they are cheap to buy and could be considered throwaway devices.

 

[MisterT]

iZettle readers can be set up within minutes. Including to a normal current account. Admittedly this is against their T&Cs however they are cheap to buy and could be considered throwaway devices.

It's not about being cheap or being against the T&C, it is about the need to have a verified bank account that is eligible to receive that kind of payments.

 

[Tetchytyke]

iZettle readers can be set up within minutes. Including to a normal current account.

They can, sort of, but the account is traceable. They could "steal" an account and use that, it's true, but "stolen" or mule accounts are much more useful for money laundering than for a Contactless rinsing sesh.

It's just an overstated myth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

iZettle readers can be set up within minutes. Including to a normal current account. Admittedly this is against their T&Cs however they are cheap to buy and could be considered throwaway devices.

The device may be throwaway, but the current account is not. And you'll find it difficult to get another one with a fraud charge involving banking.

 

[bnm]

sure why you're against people learning and trying to understand others?

I'm certainly not against people learning.

As for understanding others there's a time and a place for empathy. Whether folk do or do not like using Contactless payment is very, very far down my list of things I wish to understand of my fellow humans.

Celebrate the diversity of others, don't be 'at a loss' understanding actions that don't conform to your purview.

 

[Lucan]

Banks and (many) retailers are clearly in favour of contactless payment, so there must be some advantage to them. ..... Is it a case of avoiding losing customers to competitors that are offering the service? Or do the quicker transactions result in significant time/staff saving?

No, it is simply another step towards their aim of abolishing cash.

Banks hate cash transactions going on outside their doors. There are billions of pounds changing hands in small transactions all the time and they have no finger in it, and therefore they get no royalties. By replacing cash by contactless for this mirriad of small transactions, the banks get a will get a handsome cut in total.

There will be a big push for abolishing cash, and contactless cards pay a vital part in this. In Sweden they are going cashless already, and many people are having microchips planted under their skin to save even carrying cards.
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/22/6588...des-are-inserting-microchips-under-their-skin

As a secondary point, it enables even finer grained tracking of people's activities. For example, despite the scandals, Facebook are still upping their game :-
https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/?guccounter=1

While this does not bother me so much, it does others, and while I think the value of this data is overblown, Facebook don't and will pay the banks for it :-
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/banks-data-sharing-facebook,37556.html

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for understanding others there's a time and a place for empathy. Whether folk do or do not like using Contactless payment is very, very far down my list of things I wish to understand of my fellow humans.

Then why are you wasting your time contributing nothing to the thread?

Clearly people are interested in discussing the matter; I am. If you're not, pick a thread to read and contribute to that you are interested in? In a huge forum like this nobody is likely to be interested in *all* the threads. It always strikes me as bizarre the way this forum has so many "armchair moderators" (never the actual moderators) who seek to indicate that just because a topic is not of interest to them it somehow should not merit discussion.

 

[jon0844]

Though the problem is smaller than it was, specifically with immobilisers now built into most modern cars' ECUs and thus not bypassable. Most cars are now nicked to order by nicking the keys or craning it onto a trailer. Casual car theft (find an Escort XR3i or Astra SRi, brick through the window, hot wire it, go for a joy ride and torch it) has basically ceased completely. That I would say is a very big success. Even car radio theft has near enough gone simply because every car has a perfectly adequate one supplied with it so there is no point in nicking it unless it's something very premium. I don't even bother taking the front off mine any more.

That's correct, which is why people have to break in and steal the keys if they want to drive it away. It's the proximity keys that are a problem, rather than the remote keyfob, and is played down by major car makers, because of a pretty simple trick. It enables the car to be driven away, even though it will later become immobilised again. By then it's now tucked up in a garage of some sort being stripped down, or hacked to bypass the security, where time is no object.

I don't see much talk anywhere of tracking systems so wonder if they've gone a little out of fashion? Of course you can get cars that are 'connected' and can be used for that purpose but it's usually an extra cost option, and not sold for that purpose (more likely for things like assistance in the event of an accident, or allowing streaming of Spotify or whatever).

 

[Lucan]

If the cash is nicked, it's gone, you won't get it back. If the cards are nicked, your bank can block them and will refund any fraudulent transactions made using contactless.

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that you won't get back any money spent on your account before the time that you notify the bank.

Don't underestimate the speed at which a thief can spend your money. I have heard of cases where they get through over £100 within minutes, and before the victim has even realised his card has gone, let alone got though the bank's phone menu obstacle course to notify them. Personally I probably would not notice a lost card until my next monthly bank statement. OTOH the most cash I normally carry is about £30.

Here are some horror stories for our delectation :-
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/cri...raud-stealing-118m-in-10-months-a4030256.html

From that Evening Standard article _ "Average losses ... between £90 and £652 but the largest single contactless case reached £400,000, stemming from multiple purchases.". How often is a PIN verification required? The article does not say whether the victims were re-imbursed, but I would not like having to argue with the bank over those amounts.

 

[jon0844]

iZettle readers can be set up within minutes. Including to a normal current account. Admittedly this is against their T&Cs however they are cheap to buy and could be considered throwaway devices.

Do they not wait at all to pay the recipient? At least for a number of transactions until a track record is established?

I assume that by not having heard of iZettle and others having been defrauded loads of money by people continually registering accounts to maybe get a few £30 payments before being cut off, it isn't happening much if at all.

 

[bnm]

Then why are you wasting your time contributing nothing to the thread?

Clearly people are interested in discussing the matter; I am. If you're not, pick a thread to read and contribute to that you are interested in? In a huge forum like this nobody is likely to be interested in *all* the threads. It always strikes me as bizarre the way this forum has so many "armchair moderators" (never the actual moderators) who seek to indicate that just because a topic is not of interest to them it somehow should not merit discussion.

Where precisely have I said that the topic doesn't merit discussion?

And isn't suggesting that I find interest elsewhere also a form of armchair moderation? Pot. Kettle.

What I'm interested in here is in someone being at a loss understanding the mundane personal choices of others and then making it an 'issue' when it is far from being one.

I find it far more interesting to analyse why people find others mundane actions so fascinating, and why they make them an 'issue', than I do discussing nugatory observations.

 

[tony_mac]

What I'm interested in here is in someone being at a loss understanding the mundane personal choices of others and then making it an 'issue' when it is far from being one.

Who said it was an issue?
It was something he obviously didn't understand, so he asked for input, which many people have provided.

I think you are reading some intent into the question that I am really not seeing.

It's not a big issue?
I am purely interested why people do certain things, or act in a certain way.
Ya know... to help me understand someone elses view of the world.

(While I don't know the OP, I know that some people struggle to relate to others, and hence they may ask questions about subjects that other people can take for granted. )

 

[Bletchleyite]

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that you won't get back any money spent on your account before the time that you notify the bank.

Yes, you are wrong. Simple as that.

If you report fraud on your account, your bank's fraud department will step through recent transactions and confirm with you if they were genuine or not, and if they were not then the bank will (for contactless) charge them back (as any card acceptance by a retailer without both PIN verification and online authorisation is at retailer risk).

They might only not do this if you were unnecessarily slack in reporting it (i.e. you did not report it at the first opportunity after discovering it, e.g. "oh, I'll wait until Monday and go into the branch" would be an example of this - if you discover it most banks have a 24-hour fraud line you should call) or if you were negligent (i.e. you wilfully allowed someone else to use your card, or it was used by someone who would normally have access to it, e.g. you left it lying around where others would have access e.g. on your desk and someone accessed it that way).

Whenever I have had card fraud on my account (about 3-4 times) it has always been fully refunded.

In any case, with contactless they can't just go on spending continuously £30 at a time, the card will eventually ask for a PIN and so end up blocked anyway. Typically I believe this occurs after about 5-6 uses, a counter which is reset by choosing to use the PIN e.g. for cash withdrawal or a larger payment (or just because you felt like).

 

[sprunt]

Personally I probably would not notice a lost card until my next monthly bank statement. OTOH the most cash I normally carry is about £30.

Presumably that £30 isn't going to be the entirety of your discretionary spending before your monthly statement arrives? Wouldn't you notice when you tried to either buy something with your card, or get more cash out?

 

[Lucan]

Presumably that £30 isn't going to be the entirety of your discretionary spending before your monthly statement arrives? Wouldn't you notice when you tried to either buy something with your card, or get more cash out?

Quite likely no, I would not notice.
I have several different cards in my wallet, like two different bank cards for using cash machines, one just for fuel, one just for Asda, one just for Tesco - all according to optimising the brownie points. I could drop eg the Asda card and not notice it had gone until I next went to an Asda (could be months) or saw spending I didn't make on the monthly statement.
I would not like having to convince a card company that I had not noticed a card loss for a month while someone was having a spree with it.

 

[Lucan]

If you report fraud on your account, your bank's fraud department will step through recent transactions and ... if they were [not genuine] the bank will (for contactless) charge them back .... They might only not do this if you were unnecessarily slack in reporting it

Thanks for that information. However, as in my reply to Sprunt just now : because I have several cards in my wallet for different purposes I might not notice one had gone missing for up to a month of someone else using it. The bank would probably call that "unnecessarily slack"; they might not, but I don't consider it worth the risk of my putting it to the test, just to save pushing four numbered buttons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for that information. However, as in my reply to Sprunt just now : because I have several cards in my wallet for different purposes I might not notice one had gone missing for up to a month of someone else using it. The bank would probably call that "unnecessarily slack"; they might not, but I don't consider it worth the risk of my putting it to the test, just to save pushing four numbered buttons.

Yes, I do think that would be unnecessarily slack, and fairly irresponsible given that you wouldn't, I'm sure, treat your own cash that way. If you treat your card as you would cash, as you should, then the bank will look after you.

FWIW, I've never actually lost a card. If you always put it back in the same slot in your wallet after you've spent using it and not just put it in your pocket, the chance of doing so is minimal and you'd be doing your bit of the due diligence. If your wallet's card slots have distorted such that cards fall out, time for a new wallet.

 

[johntea]

I've been using contactless for years and years in various parts of the UK and have yet to be scammed, weirdly enough though I could probably count on one hand the amount of times I've ever been asked for the extra security check of entering my PIN code whereas friends of mine have to do it all the time!

These days the account linked to my contactless debit card only ever contains £100 or so at any one time with no overdraft allowances etc, the rest goes in a separate bank account and I can just transfer as and when I need to. Generally I do all my spending on my credit card and pay it off in full each month as I can build up points for Amazon vouchers etc. that way!

I can check my transactions any time I want via mobile internet banking too so any fraud I would notice pretty quickly as I often log in several times a day just to see if I've won the lottery or not yet!

 

[whhistle]

I'm certainly not against people learning.

As for understanding others there's a time and a place for empathy. Whether folk do or do not like using Contactless payment is very, very far down my list of things I wish to understand of my fellow humans.

Your post seems to imply otherwise.
And this is a time and a place I can practice empathy, with a subject that I saw in another thread, so it got me wondering. I mean, it's all about embracing diversity and understanding actions that don't conform to your view isn't it?

 

[whhistle]

It's the proximity keys that are a problem, rather than the remote keyfob, and is played down by major car makers, because of a pretty simple trick.

I wonder if door makers are missing a trick here by not including some sort of metal sheet in their doors, then selling them for an extra £200 as "security" doors to stop this happening.

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that you won't get back any money spent on your account before the time that you notify the bank.

Which then goes right back to what @Bletchleyite says about paying with your phone is the most secure method. Thid thread has certainly made me think about using it more... more so for ease as it's probably easier to tap my phone rather than faff with a wallet, even though both are relatively simple tasks.

I wonder if in the future, cash points will become a little smarter and be able to use phone authorisation to dispense cash.

Just a shame as a local garden centre and B&Q don't yet have contactless, which these days surprises me.

 

[whhistle]

What I'm interested in here is in someone being at a loss understanding the mundane personal choices of others and then making it an 'issue' when it is far from being one.

I fail to see in the opening post, where I said I was for/against contactless payments.
Going through the first posts, yours is the only one that takes issue with the thread.

I'm not at a "loss" per se (my elocution isn't great!), but I am interested to understand why people seem to make job more difficult than they need to be. This then leads me to think whether there is anything in my own life that I make more difficult than it needs to be. It's called personal reflection, which is seen to be quite a good trait to have.

But if you were so interested in my reasoning for posting, why not message me directly?
There's hundreds of threads on this forum that I don't see the need for, but I don't post in all of them saying that - I never even open the thread!
Feel free to message me directly though, as others have said, your posts in this thread are the only ones that are causing an issue.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if door makers are missing a trick here by not including some sort of metal sheet in their doors, then selling them for an extra £200 as "security" doors to stop this happening.



Which then goes right back to what @Bletchleyite says about paying with your phone is the most secure method. Thid thread has certainly made me think about using it more... more so for ease as it's probably easier to tap my phone rather than faff with a wallet, even though both are relatively simple tasks.

I wonder if in the future, cash points will become a little smarter and be able to use phone authorisation to dispense cash.

Just a shame as a local garden centre and B&Q don't yet have contactless, which these days surprises me.

At least one bank has ATMs that take contactless although I've not used one. I assume you tap the phone to authorise a withdrawal, which would stop thieves with cameras and card skimmers in their tracks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if in the future, cash points will become a little smarter and be able to use phone authorisation to dispense cash.

I'm surprised this hasn't already happened, as so many people would use it I think we could see a significant reduction in skimming, because fewer cards and PINs would be there for the taking so may well make it no longer worthwhile.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes, you are wrong. Simple as that.

If you report fraud on your account, your bank's fraud department will step through recent transactions and confirm with you if they were genuine or not, and if they were not then the bank will (for contactless) charge them back (as any card acceptance by a retailer without both PIN verification and online authorisation is at retailer risk).

They might only not do this if you were unnecessarily slack in reporting it (i.e. you did not report it at the first opportunity after discovering it, e.g. "oh, I'll wait until Monday and go into the branch" would be an example of this - if you discover it most banks have a 24-hour fraud line you should call) or if you were negligent (i.e. you wilfully allowed someone else to use your card, or it was used by someone who would normally have access to it, e.g. you left it lying around where others would have access e.g. on your desk and someone accessed it that way).

Whenever I have had card fraud on my account (about 3-4 times) it has always been fully refunded.

In any case, with contactless they can't just go on spending continuously £30 at a time, the card will eventually ask for a PIN and so end up blocked anyway. Typically I believe this occurs after about 5-6 uses, a counter which is reset by choosing to use the PIN e.g. for cash withdrawal or a larger payment (or just because you felt like).

Does it though?
I've used my contactless card more than 6 times in a row, and it's never asked for a PIN
But I guess the transactions aren't hugely suspicious as they're low value, and spread out over a few days/weeks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does it though?
I've used my contactless card more than 6 times in a row, and it's never asked for a PIN
But I guess the transactions aren't hugely suspicious as they're low value, and spread out over a few days/weeks.

I don't know the precise criteria and they may well vary from bank to bank, but there are criteria. The likes of LU don't ever refer, though, as they can't as there is no PIN pad.

There may well be a time criterion, for instance. The intention, after all, is that for normal usage it shouldn't come up so as not to inconvenience people.

 

[trainmania100]

I prefer to use contactless wherever possible, it's quick and easy and saves having to put my pin in
I keep forgetting my wallet and leaving it at home so am tempted to set up contactless on my Google pay as well.

 

[Condor7]

Using your phone is surely better as you can swap cards easily and only authorise a payment if the phone is unlocked. If stolen, besides being unusable, you can kill the virtual card and set up again on a replacement phone.

Many places also have no limit on Google, Samsung or Apple Pay.

While I carry a card, I rarely have to remove it from my pocket and it's mostly used at a cash point (rarely as I don't need much cash).

The phone also holds my loyalty cards.

I do exactly the same, only ever using my physical card if the purchase is over £30.

The advantages are.....
It’s more secure as you have to have your phone locked and use your phone PIN number to open your phone.
It can’t be skimmed
As most of us always have our phones with us it’s more convenient.

The only disadvantage is having to enter a PIN when you want to use your phone for other reasons, that being said keeping your phone locked is the most sensible thing to do.

I also use the Stocard app on my phone. This stores all my loyalty cards. (You just scan your cards once when you get the app, it takes about 2 seconds to do each card) then every time you are asked for your Nectar card, Morrison’s More card, Tesco Club card etc etc you just scan your phone. Therefore you always have them with you no need to have a bulging wallet or purse and it’s amazing how the points build up and the amount of coupons you end up getting.

 

[jon0844]

I do exactly the same, only ever using my physical card if the purchase is over £30.

The advantages are.....
It’s more secure as you have to have your phone locked and use your phone PIN number to open your phone.
It can’t be skimmed
As most of us always have our phones with us it’s more convenient.

The only disadvantage is having to enter a PIN when you want to use your phone for other reasons, that being said keeping your phone locked is the most sensible thing to do.

I also use the Stocard app on my phone. This stores all my loyalty cards. (You just scan your cards once when you get the app, it takes about 2 seconds to do each card) then every time you are asked for your Nectar card, Morrison’s More card, Tesco Club card etc etc you just scan your phone. Therefore you always have them with you no need to have a bulging wallet or purse and it’s amazing how the points build up and the amount of coupons you end up getting.

It's great isn't it? My phone has a fingerprint sensor and face unlock, so just by picking it up and tilting it forward it will unlock with no input at all - and if it doesn't, then a quick press on the screen will unlock it.

Every now and then it will ask for me to enter a PIN even when unlocked, and I assume that's when paying for goods over £30. That's a little more inconvenient, but not insurmountable (the issue is that very occasionally the transaction fails, as while my phone says to present the phone again, the terminal has cancelled it). That seems more likely down to the software on the card terminal.

 

[whhistle]

I also use the Stocard app on my phone.

Google Pay allows you to do this natively, so you don't need an extra app.
Not sure about iphones though.