• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

People coming here for prosecution advice

Status
Not open for further replies.

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,938
Location
UK
Does anyone know where these people are coming from? I don't believe they simply search for advice and come straight here - but are in fact being recommended to come here for advice from another forum.

All the posts seem to follow a similar pattern; confess to fare evading, then say they're terrified of being punished and getting a criminal record.

It's as if there's a forum that says people on here will help get people off (or find a way to lessen the impact) and I am worried that it might harm the reputation of this forum if true.

Now I know that all the advice on here is above board and some people are unfairly treated by revenue staff, but too many people in recent weeks seem to be totally 101% guilty of fare evasion and I'm not even sure people should get involved with giving advice at all - for the risk of this forum being one day exposed as a site that helps get fare evaders off.

I think we can all see the differences between people who made honest mistakes, weren't fully aware of the rules (whether they should have been or not) and those who are likely habitual evaders and suddenly got caught and now go crying to this forum for a sympathetic ear and advice on how to lessen the punishment.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
7,436
Does anyone know where these people are coming from? I don't believe they simply search for advice and come straight here - but are in fact being recommended to come here for advice from another forum.

jon

I believe that some users of this forum are indeed members of other fora and recommend people come here (eg I have seen a poster called "yorkie2" on MSE who, by style of posting, could well be "yorkie" from here, similarly there is a "stigy" on there also - CAG has pointed here at times also). BUT I have only seen such recommendations in cases where the individual seemed to have a case (ie not the 100% guilty seeking advice on wishing to minimise punishment). It may be as simple as google pulling up this site when a particular search is made.....
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,131
Jon - I saw something on MSE directing people here. Tbh, I don't really see a problem - we are not miracle workers, and some cases are so straightforward that it's going to Court no matter what - that decision is at the discretion of the TOCs prosecution teams.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,938
Location
UK
I know that all the advice on here is sound and nobody is ever giving advice on how to break the law (e.g. lying) to avoid prosecution.

But, we can all imagine the possibility of this forum getting a reputation for helping criminals if there aren't strict rules on what help can be given. Perhaps there could be a dedicated section for revenue/prosecution issues - with a disclaimer?

Better to be safe than sorry.

(Oh, and maybe a sub-section for FCC related problems, as that would quickly take over! :D )
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,131
I know that all the advice on here is sound and nobody is ever giving advice on how to break the law (e.g. lying) to avoid prosecution.

But, we can all imagine the possibility of this forum getting a reputation for helping criminals if there aren't strict rules on what help can be given. Perhaps there could be a dedicated section for revenue/prosecution issues - with a disclaimer?

Better to be safe than sorry.

(Oh, and maybe a sub-section for FCC related problems, as that would quickly take over! :D )

Have you had any issues with FCC at all Jon? :D

I think, being realistic, that it's impossible for us to 'get people off'. In some cases there are those of us who can advise on lessening the impact. There are also people (such as this chap it seems) who have no idea what sort of trouble they are in. We can help them to understand their predicament a little more. Is that damaging to the reputation of this forum?
 

theblackwatch

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2006
Messages
10,889
I've not come across a forum or website recommending us as you outline - but if you google "fare evasion getting off", then our forum is the first search that comes up.
 

cuccir

Established Member
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
3,695
I must admit I find myself reluctant to offer too much help in cases such as No ticket from Langley to Westdrayton. While I don't agree with those who just come onto threads and start insulting people who haven't paid, we should remember that many of those who come on and are 'very sorry' are sorry because they were caught and are scared of the consequences, not because they feel that they did something wrong (this post on that theme by DaveNewcastle made me laugh, as well as the fact that the OP then started to refer to him as 'sir' in every post :))

On the other hand, the forum does provide advice when people have been confused or misinformed by ticket sales, staff advice, or something similar. We've had two (here & here) in August, both with a certain TOC who have already been mentioned in this thread. Undoubtedly, the advice of some posters from this forum has helped people in this rather distressing situation, without them having to get the potentially-expensive advice of a lawyer, or pay an unnecessary out-of-court fee.

The price of helping these people seems to be that we have to listen to those who've broken the rules, so that we can distinguish the two. If we then provide a full and frank explanation of what they may face, and a little advice as to how obtain the best solution for themselves - usually an out of court settlement, which is hardly bad news for the TOC involved - then I don't think any harm is done. I'm not sure that those members who assist in letter proof-reading and that level of 'extended' advice ever get involved with those who have straight-forwardly broken the rules, and I don't expect they would offer those services in those circumstances.

--
Maybe a
'Please read before asking for advice on railway prosecutions' sticky might be a good idea? It would give a similar list on what info to provide, and also a note that while we can inform people of what to expect, we are not interested in helping those who have knowingly avoided paying and are seeking to get out of being punished?
 
Last edited:

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
2,311
Interesting points.

However I don't think the usual advice 'Write and offer them money, be polite' is going to cause too much disquiet at the TOC prosecution departments.

It is not really 'getting off', just responding in a manner that suits BOTH parties.
 

steamybrian

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
2,003
Location
Kent
The simple solution is not to answer questions on prosecutions particularly on forum members who have had very few postings.
Yes -I agree to answer queries where perhaps the writer has for example 20 postings AND it would appear that the TTI or booking clerk has made a geniuine mistake or there was an anomaly in ticket time or train restrictions .
NO- to any one travelling without a ticket and expect us to defend them.!
 
Last edited:

Roylang

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2011
Messages
392
Location
Hampshire & Cornwall
Am I the only one that feels that people who come here with the not uncommon story of "I lied about my name / address now please help me" should just be told to go forth and suffer the consequences?

Roy
 

222007

Member
Joined
12 Jun 2007
Messages
468
Location
By The Track
I have to say this forum is extremely good with advice, Ferret, Yorkie and other offer great advice. I am just thankful no one that i've dealt with has come for advice, at the end of the we are human but come on if you cant do the time (so to speak) dont do the crime. I only take a course of action against someone if i think its a stonewall court case and clearly see someone has broken the rules
 

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
2,311
Am I the only one that feels that people who come here with the not uncommon story of "I lied about my name / address now please help me" should just be told to go forth and suffer the consequences?

But the consequences are not set in stone.

Do you mean 'clog up our courts for which I pay my taxes and for which the lying scrotes won't pay the full cost if convicted?'

No thanks.

I don't think being told they might get a criminal record and can settle for £100 or so is much consolation to someone who has saved £3 on a ticket to West Drayton.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,938
Location
UK
Have you had any issues with FCC at all Jon? :D

I wasn't actually referring to my own problem (all down to one single RPI) but the sheer number of FCC related stories on here... and all along the same lines; byelaw offence, intention to prosecute and then FCC offering the person an out of court settlement (rather than the person specifically asking for one)!
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,131
Am I the only one that feels that people who come here with the not uncommon story of "I lied about my name / address now please help me" should just be told to go forth and suffer the consequences?

Roy

Well, the TOC may do just that Roy - there's no obligation to settle out of Court. TOCs make their own decision regardless of what is written on this forum.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,938
Location
UK
Have you had any issues with FCC at all Jon? :D

I wasn't actually referring to my own problem (all down to one single RPI) but the sheer number of FCC related stories on here... and all along the same lines; byelaw offence, intention to prosecute and then FCC offering the person an out of court settlement (rather than the person specifically asking for one)!
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
I've seen some people on Yahoo! Answers referred here too and given the intellectual capacity of some (most?) it's not surprising details are light and the OP does a runner when the replies are not what they wanted to hear.
Would prosecution threads warrant a subforum (presumably of FT&R)? We could put a disclaimer in it about not being legal professionals, ymmv, use at your own risk.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
It does seem often that a lot of them don't get the answer they want (ie "get of jail free") immediatly/within a couple of hours, and then sod off, not returning to see all the good practical advice about how to try to settle without getting a criminal record.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,938
Location
UK
The fact that people think there is going to be a way to get let off (like a loophole) probably explains why so many people don't see any problem with fare evasion - and get suitably upset when caught.

Only once caught do they suddenly consider the seriousness, like a criminal record that could cause a lot of problems in the future. Until then, it seems like there's no real harm done - especially as there's no real harm done when it's just ripping off evil private companies that can afford it.

No wonder they don't stick around when people here can't wave a magic wand and make the problem go away.
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,131
I wasn't actually referring to my own problem (all down to one single RPI) but the sheer number of FCC related stories on here... and all along the same lines; byelaw offence, intention to prosecute and then FCC offering the person an out of court settlement (rather than the person specifically asking for one)!

It does seem as if FCC are having a right old purge to me! I suspect they offer to settle because they cannot possibly bring all these cases to Court. Their RPIs do seem very productive!!!!!

The fact that people think there is going to be a way to get let off (like a loophole) probably explains why so many people don't see any problem with fare evasion - and get suitably upset when caught.

Only once caught do they suddenly consider the seriousness, like a criminal record that could cause a lot of problems in the future. Until then, it seems like there's no real harm done - especially as there's no real harm done when it's just ripping off evil private companies that can afford it.

No wonder they don't stick around when people here can't wave a magic wand and make the problem go away.

My thoughts entirely. The problem that people have is that they are caught bang to rights and then incriminate themselves when interviewed by the RPI! Having done that, how people think they can 'get off' is beyond me!
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,048
Location
Yorkshire
The fact that people think there is going to be a way to get let off (like a loophole) probably explains why so many people don't see any problem with fare evasion - and get suitably upset when caught.

Only once caught do they suddenly consider the seriousness, like a criminal record that could cause a lot of problems in the future. Until then, it seems like there's no real harm done - especially as there's no real harm done when it's just ripping off evil private companies that can afford it.

No wonder they don't stick around when people here can't wave a magic wand and make the problem go away.

I'd expect that people expect we'll be as good as the forums for speeding tickets and parking tickets. On those forums, people post 'I was caught doing 80 in a 30 zone whilst drunk and without insurance please help me get off' and other members happily do.

I do wonder though whether there are cases where we could be more helpful. For example, these FCC "pay us £200 and we won't prosecute you" could be a penalty/extortion/blackmail.
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
Does anyone know where these people are coming from? I don't believe they simply search for advice and come straight here - but are in fact being recommended to come here for advice from another forum.

All the posts seem to follow a similar pattern; confess to fare evading, then say they're terrified of being punished and getting a criminal record.

It's as if there's a forum that says people on here will help get people off (or find a way to lessen the impact) and I am worried that it might harm the reputation of this forum if true.

Now I know that all the advice on here is above board and some people are unfairly treated by revenue staff, but too many people in recent weeks seem to be totally 101% guilty of fare evasion and I'm not even sure people should get involved with giving advice at all - for the risk of this forum being one day exposed as a site that helps get fare evaders off.

I think we can all see the differences between people who made honest mistakes, weren't fully aware of the rules (whether they should have been or not) and those who are likely habitual evaders and suddenly got caught and now go crying to this forum for a sympathetic ear and advice on how to lessen the punishment.
I've had the same thoughts Jon, and indeed posted it on a thread (subsequently pulled) about a month ago started by a blatant fare-dodger.

I know that the railway by-laws are written in such a way that sometimes people can inadvertently fall foul of them - some people do, and one function of the forum that I agree with is giving these people advice on possible mitigation / defences thay can employ.

However, the similarity of all the posters who are approaching the forum for "get out of jail free" information leads me to suspect that they have seen an approach that works, in terms of getting a sympathetic approach from (some) members, and figure it works for them.

When someone comes on here, they have had time to reflect on their story, twist it to show them in the best light, and the rail staff in the worst. They have probably done some research on the thread, and in the relevant by-laws.

The story they give is not going to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It is going to be their interpretation of their "absolutely and totally necessary" rail journey without a valid ticket, and why they could not have possibly purchased a valid ticket before being challenged (caught) by a member of rail staff.

Most RPI's / ATE's / Guards / Gateline staff are reasonable people, with a job to do, that is not pretty at times. However, it is a necessary job. When they are given a story from a passenger, it is probably the unvarnished truth, or has not got the holes in the story closed up as the passenger has not had time to think about it enough to close the holes. The old line from Judge Judy, "if it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true" is pretty close to the mark.

At this stage, there are enough threads of the "I'm so worried, I'm going to be taken to court and the stress is killing me and I had to get on that train without a ticket because of my dying grandmother and the nasty man was so rude to me" that there is a case for a generic "information" sticky. However, IMHO there needs to be moderation on the starting of these threads, unless they are bringing something new to the party.

I don't know how this could be done, but, lately, I think that the forum (and those who provide advice) is being taken for a ride by people trying to avoid the consequences of their criminal behaviour.

Just to add, as someone who has the day-job of dealing with them, a huge majority of them, whilst they come on here all contrition and poor me, are nasty, nasty people to deal with face to face. The background to the "letter of prosecution" in the majority of cases involves a member of revenue staff who has probably been lied to, verbally abused, threatened, possibly accused of racism, probably had a complaint made against them in the expectation of disciplinary action, and this is not me over-egging the pudding - if you don't believe me, ask any of my colleagues on here (or in a station) that work in a revenue role.

If I am less than happy with the "group hug, lets tell you how to sort it all out" approach that is taken on some threads, I'm afraid all I can plead is that actually dealing with the individuals face to face has pretty much robbed me of all sympathy. Which is one reason I try not to contribute to those threads, as I actually agree with giving these fare-dodgers a hard time. I don't honestly see why they should think they can get away with it, or members on here think they should, either.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,938
Location
UK
I've had posts pulled as I've pretty much said 'tough' and thought that was the most appropriate response. :)

Slightly off topic, my local councillor today announced that a nearby road (by a school) is getting yellow lines painted for safety - i.e. to stop mums (and dads) parking dangerously.

I said that I expected they'd continue to do so, and whenever they're told off, they always claim it was just for a few minutes so what's the harm (as if blocking the view of other motorists, or children, for a few hours is dangerous but a few seconds is perfectly safe). The reply I got was that if they don't, they'll have to consider enforcement.

That shocked me, as they're naively expecting that painting the lines will solve the problem when it clearly won't. Without proper enforcement, with tough penalties, the roads will be no safer than today.

But you can bet your life that if any parent got a ticket and a hefty penalty, they'd be moaning in the local paper about the harsh penalty for just stopping for a second.. and then you'd get the photo of mum with little Johnny looking sad for the photographer...

Sometimes people need to be punished and not seek an easy way to get let off. Or, at least we adopt the three strikes system which allows a few mistakes but make too many and - bam - it's serious punishment time. At least that allows people to make one-off errors of judgement and learn from them.
 

michael769

Established Member
Joined
9 Oct 2005
Messages
2,008
Given that the advice given to the guilty is to take the fine/pay the out of court settlement, I don't think that we risk getting a reputation for helping criminals get off.

Personaly I have no problem giving fare dodgers advice on their situation, at the end of the day murderers and rapsts are entitled to free lawyers to defend them in court - so why can't someone accused of a comparitively minor offence be told what their options are.

I'd be more concerned if we were promoting dubious "get off" schemes or encouraging people to lie to the authorities, but we are not and so I don't see a problem. In fact it is possible that in some cases by advising people how week their positions is we may be saving ToCs and taxpayers the expense of prosecuting on a not guilty plea.

I am surprised how many folks come here though, a quick read of similar threads would warn them that this not a place to come to get told how to get away with it.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,938
Location
UK
And that's the problem. People seem to think this is the place to get advice on how to get away with it. As it turns out, most quickly discover that isn't the case and disappear as quickly as they appeared.
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
Given that the advice given to the guilty is to take the fine/pay the out of court settlement, I don't think that we risk getting a reputation for helping criminals get off.

Personaly I have no problem giving fare dodgers advice on their situation, at the end of the day murderers and rapsts are entitled to free lawyers to defend them in court - so why can't someone accused of a comparitively minor offence be told what their options are.

I'd be more concerned if we were promoting dubious "get off" schemes or encouraging people to lie to the authorities, but we are not and so I don't see a problem. In fact it is possible that in some cases by advising people how week their positions is we may be saving ToCs and taxpayers the expense of prosecuting on a not guilty plea.

I am surprised how many folks come here though, a quick read of similar threads would warn them that this not a place to come to get told how to get away with it.

People accused of crimes have the option of getting legal advice. Whether free or otherwise depends on their circumstances. If it costs them, and they are unable to get that refunded because they are guilty, well, that is one of the consequences of their crime.

Their solicitor and/or barrister is paid to "professionally" believe their story, however implausible. When I read a post from a fare dodger who has been caught, I am NOT being paid to believe it, and by their posting it in an open forum, I believe I have the right as a member of the forum to post my opinion on that.

If that comment is that they are a crook who has been caught and has to face the consequences of their actions, and that I personally am pleased they have been, I should have the right to say that as much as you have the right to give advice on how they can minimise the consequences to them.
 

MCR247

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2008
Messages
10,292
Would it be an idea if the amount of PF/UPFN etc threads keeps on getting better to make a new sub-forum for it? I know that might encourage it more but it might mean there is more room for people with geniune splitting etc queries to get more responses in the main ticketing section?
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,131
I do wonder though whether there are cases where we could be more helpful. For example, these FCC "pay us £200 and we won't prosecute you" could be a penalty/extortion/blackmail.

I think because FCC's revenue team are so prolific at catching fare evaders (hint to all TOCs and McNumpty - barriers don't stop the dodgers), it's impossible for them to prosecute everyone. So, they are perfectly happy to settle the minor cases out of Court - nice little revenue stream too!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
35,461
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
Would it be an idea if the amount of PF/UPFN etc threads keeps on getting better to make a new sub-forum for it? I know that might encourage it more but it might mean there is more room for people with genuine splitting etc queries to get more responses in the main ticketing section?

I still believe that the existing Fares and Ticketing forum is the best place for these queries to be answered.

I wondered when this new thread started whether this too should have been on that forum rather than the General Discussion forum, as this would be the most obvious place for it to have been seen by those forum members with a deep knowledge of this matter.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top