Pensioner against feet on seats

[PauloDavesi]

I think we are all in agreement that the young children should not have put their feet on a seat.
However, there are many here that find an adult assaulting a young child is an acceptable behaviour. It is NOT. Even more worrying is that such actions are supported by forum members who work in customer facing roles in the rail industry.

Should someone with that attitude really really be working in a customer facing role?

 

[Flamingo]

I think we are all in agreement that the young children should not have put their feet on a seat.
However, there are many here that find an adult assaulting a young child is an acceptable behaviour. It is NOT. Even more worrying is that such actions are supported by forum members who work in customer facing roles in the rail industry.

Should someone with that attitude really really be working in a customer facing role?

Again, can you identify the posts from railstaff which say that?

You keep asserting it, but not linking to them. It's easy enough.

 

[rmt4ever]

A slap round the wrist doesn't do anyone any harm!! No matter how young.

I think they should give all senior citizens free first class upgrades (and of course ban kids from these carriages) so they don't have to put up with the crap this poor gent has had to..

I still want to buy him a pint, and I'd throw in a whisky chaser too !

 

[me123]

I think they should give all senior citizens free first class upgrades (and of course ban kids from these carriages) so they don't have to put up with the crap this poor gent has had to..

I'm all for that if it means that children are protected from abusive adults. Children, like all passengers, have the right to travel without fear of assault.

I have absolutely no idea what "crap" (if any) that the man in question had to deal with, but nothing I can think of justifies his behaviour. Certainly if it was just about feet on seats he hasn't had to put up with anything.

 

[transmanche]

A slap round the wrist doesn't do anyone any harm!! No matter how young.

This wasn't a 'slap on the wrist'. This was a grown man twisting the arm of a small child.

Source: Manchester Evening News

 

[PauloDavesi]

The image shows a violent assault on a young child, a criminal act that, sadly & worryingly, many, including industry operatives, here think is acceptable behaviour.

 

[Mintona]

<snip>sadly & worryingly, many, including industry operatives, here think is acceptable behaviour.

Just because you keep saying it, it doesn't make it true.

 

[DarloRich]

Just because you keep saying it, it doesn't make it true.

h'way man - that picture ( above) is well out of order!

 

[Mintona]

h'way man - that picture ( above) is well out of order!

Apologies, I was referring to the staff comment. At no point has any member of staff suggested that it was a valid reaction, at least as far as I can see.

 

[DarloRich]

Apologies, I was referring to the staff comment. At no point has any member of staff suggested that it was a valid reaction, at least as far as I can see.

no worries. Apologies for any annoyance.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Is there more than the still picture shown here ? Was just wondering if there was a possibility that it was taken out of context or maybe a set up/prank. Find it hard to believe that the man hasn't been tracked down, identified and questioned by police yet.

Although there may be a certain sentiment supporting the man's actions it is not borne out by the actions of rail staff (Assaults by staff on passengers are very rare - assaults by passengers on staff not so rare).

 

[185]

Is there more than the still picture shown here ? Was just wondering if there was a possibility that it was taken out of context or maybe a set up/prank. Find it hard to believe that the man hasn't been tracked down, identified and questioned by police yet.

Definitely a real incident, not staged, couple of bulletins bouncing about before the press got hold of it.

As frightening as this may seem, this was probably what we'd expect if we behaved like a little ______ before the 1980s. Doesn't make the old duffer's actions right, but behaviour of kids from some families is just appalling.

Boot camp for bad kids sounds a good idea - a month of torture hanging upside down on an assault course.

 

[Flamingo]

The image shows a violent assault on a young child, a criminal act that, sadly & worryingly, many, including industry operatives, here think is acceptable behaviour.

You have been asked many times to link to these posts where railstaff approved of this mans actions.

You still can't?

 

[Class377]

As frightening as this may seem, this was probably what we'd expect if we behaved like a little ______ before the 1980s. Doesn't make the old duffer's actions right, but behaviour of kids from some families is just appalling.

If children expected to be physically assaulted for doing something minor (and not posing a threat to others) back then, I'm frankly glad that our society ended up moving out of the dark ages and became civilised.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This wasn't a 'slap on the wrist'. This was a grown man twisting the arm of a small child.

There are easy ways and hard ways of learning to behave with respect and decency towards other people. This little kid decided he wanted to learn it the hard way. "You won't touch me", the kid mocked. Oh dear, turns out he will.

It's exactly how my grandfather- a copper originally from Glasgow- encouraged children in the town where I grew up to see the error of their ways back in the 60s and 70s. And rather than run off bleating to the papers the parents back then would also have given their kids a hiding for having to be encouraged by PC Troll.

If I found out that my daughter behaved like that on a train her feet wouldn't touch the floor. And I've never once had to smack her.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Find it hard to believe that the man hasn't been tracked down, identified and questioned by police yet.

Would you shop him in for teaching a little scrote a lesson in manners and respect? I wouldn't.

 

[Harbornite]

There are easy ways and hard ways of learning to behave with respect and decency towards other people. This little kid decided he wanted to learn it the hard way. "You won't touch me", the kid mocked. Oh dear, turns out he will.

It's exactly how my grandfather- a copper originally from Glasgow- encouraged children in the town where I grew up to see the error of their ways back in the 60s and 70s. And rather than run off bleating to the papers the parents back then would also have given their kids a hiding for having to be encouraged by PC Troll.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Would you shop him in for teaching a little scrote a lesson in manners and respect? I wouldn't.

It's not the 70s any more. The world has moved on...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The image shows a violent assault on a young child, a criminal act that, sadly & worryingly, many, including industry operatives, here think is acceptable behaviour.

Which members of staff have said that?

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's not the 70s any more. The world has moved on...

Indeed it has. Which is a big part of the reason one sees antisocial behaviour on public transport- smoking, drinking, feet on seats, swearing- that we simply didn't see even 20 years ago.

The old guy asked the kids to behave three or four times, and they took the p!ss out of him for it. It's a real shame the little scrote chose to learn his lesson the hard way.

 

[OneOffDave]

There are easy ways and hard ways of learning to behave with respect and decency towards other people. This little kid decided he wanted to learn it the hard way. "You won't touch me", the kid mocked. Oh dear, turns out he will.

It's exactly how my grandfather- a copper originally from Glasgow- encouraged children in the town where I grew up to see the error of their ways back in the 60s and 70s. And rather than run off bleating to the papers the parents back then would also have given their kids a hiding for having to be encouraged by PC Troll.

If I found out that my daughter behaved like that on a train her feet wouldn't touch the floor. And I've never once had to smack her.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Would you shop him in for teaching a little scrote a lesson in manners and respect? I wouldn't.

So presumably if you behave in a manner I find offensive you'll be more than happy for me to show you the error of you ways by using pain compliance techniques on you? Or any of your children?

 

[Harbornite]

Indeed it has. Which is a big part of the reason one sees antisocial behaviour on public transport- smoking, drinking, feet on seats, swearing- that we simply didn't see even 20 years ago.

The old guy asked the kids to behave three or four times, and they took the p!ss out of him for it. It's a real shame the little scrote chose to learn his lesson the hard way.

Well did you know that youth crime and drug consumption are declining? Don't be influenced by the tabloids.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

This really is one of those threads that's going to go nowhere, the views are completely polarised:

"All children should be bashed over head with a brick until they learn to behave, the little f*ckers. Never did me any harm!"

vs

"Aww, let's wrap them up in cotton wool and protect them from the world, so that no harm can ever come of them, the beautiful little darlings"

Round and round we go...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Well did you know that youth crime and drug consumption are declining? Don't be influenced by the tabloids.

I'm not. I'm influenced by what I see with my own eyes, especially on late evening Metro trains here.

The vast majority of children and teenagers are everything we want them to be: polite, courteous, intelligent, hard-working, independent.

But there is a significant minority who believe that they can do what they want- drink, smoke, swear, verbally abuse people- with impunity. Nobody can touch them or make them behave. You saw this with these kids. The eye witnesses say the old guy asked them to behave three or four times, and he was replied with mocking jeers.

It's not like he smashed a fist in their face or whacked them with a cricket bat. He simply held them in an uncomfortable position to encourage them to be a bit more polite next time. I really don't see the issue. As for the kid bawling his eyes out, well maybe next time someone asks him to behave properly in public he won't be a smartarse about it.

 

[Bromley boy]

Passengers can not be ejected at unmanned stations.

Other than that, once the station staff are made aware that the person is being ejected, why, and any vulnerabilities the guard thinks they may have (drunk, ill, young), my understanding is that anybody who is breaking railway bylaws or causing a disturbance to other passengers can be made leave a train at a manned station (and I have done so on several occasions - usually into the care of BTP).

If there are issues around young people at a station, the station staff can contact their parents or guardian to come and collect them. The railway is not "In loco parentis" (no pun intended), and if parents think their children are responsible enough to travel on their own, then they have to take the other responsibilities that come with it.

Having said that, the man was wrong to assault the young male, and should have got the guard (assuming it was not DOO). If it was DOO then this is another example of why a guard is needed.

To notion that people cannot be ejected at unmanned stations seems ridiculous (and very unfair on on-train staff).

If somebody is ejected from a nightclub because they are too drunk, there's no expectation that the nightclub would owe them a duty of care afterwards. Why should the railway be any different? If you're ejected at an unmanned station due to your behaviour, order a cab, walk, or whatever! Why should it be the railway's problem.

If "children" of whatever age are deemed old enough by their parents/carers to travel by train unsupervised, then surely they are also deemed old enough to deal with the consequences of being chucked off said train if they cause a nuisance to staff or other passengers (I'm thinking especially here of rowdy school kids).

Once again, too much emphasis on bloody rights and not enough on responsibilities!

 

[Harbornite]

I'm not. I'm influenced by what I see with my own eyes, especially on late evening Metro trains here.

The vast majority of children and teenagers are everything we want them to be: polite, courteous, intelligent, hard-working, independent.

But there is a significant minority who believe that they can do what they want- drink, smoke, swear, verbally abuse people- with impunity. Nobody can touch them or make them behave. You saw this with these kids. The eye witnesses say the old guy asked them to behave three or four times, and he was replied with mocking jeers.

It's not like he smashed a fist in their face or whacked them with a cricket bat. He simply held them in an uncomfortable position to encourage them to be a bit more polite next time. I really don't see the issue. As for the kid bawling his eyes out, well maybe next time someone asks him to behave properly in public he won't be a smartarse about it.

There's nothing wrong with telling off children, but resorting to physical force is wrong and suggests that the person in question lacks real authority. The old man should have risen above the situation and moved on.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

To notion that people cannot be ejected at unmanned stations seems ridiculous (and very unfair on on-train staff).

If somebody is ejected from a nightclub because they are too drunk, there's no expectation that the nightclub would owe them a duty of care afterwards.

Are you sure about that?

Police have vowed to investigate a nightclub which was criticised by a judge for ejecting a ‘drunk’ student, who was then abducted and raped in a transit van.

Snobs was told by a judge that she intended to refer the case to council licensing chiefs after security staff kicked out the 19-year-old victim after she collapsed inside.

Now police have confirmed that they will also be speaking to club management and investigating if any of its licence conditions have been breached.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/snobs-faces-police-probe-after-11427261

 

[DarloRich]

To notion that people cannot be ejected at unmanned stations seems ridiculous (and very unfair on on-train staff).

If somebody is ejected from a nightclub because they are too drunk, there's no expectation that the nightclub would owe them a duty of care afterwards. Why should the railway be any different? If you're ejected at an unmanned station due to your behaviour, order a cab, walk, or whatever! Why should it be the railway's problem.

If "children" of whatever age are deemed old enough by their parents/carers to travel by train unsupervised, then surely they are also deemed old enough to deal with the consequences of being chucked off said train if they cause a nuisance to staff or other passengers (I'm thinking especially here of rowdy school kids).

Once again, too much emphasis on bloody rights and not enough on responsibilities!

But the nightclub bouncer does owe a duty of care. He must eject said patron from the nightclub in such a manner so as to not induce his head to come into repeated contact with the fire escape door, steps and then sadly with the size 11 boot of the bouncer once he reaches the bottom of said steps. Damn those terrible human rights!

I might also suggest they have a duty towards vulnerable people within thier care - should someone so drunk or on drugs that they can not protect themselves be simply turfed out? Night club owners have been held “vicariously liable” for the actions of thier door staff in the past.

 

[Class377]

There are easy ways and hard ways of learning to behave with respect and decency towards other people. This little kid decided he wanted to learn it the hard way. "You won't touch me", the kid mocked. Oh dear, turns out he will.

It's exactly how my grandfather- a copper originally from Glasgow- encouraged children in the town where I grew up to see the error of their ways back in the 60s and 70s. And rather than run off bleating to the papers the parents back then would also have given their kids a hiding for having to be encouraged by PC Troll.

If I found out that my daughter behaved like that on a train her feet wouldn't touch the floor. And I've never once had to smack her.

By the same logic, I assume if you ever do anything mildly irritating - because, let's be honest, that's all it is to put your feet up on a train - you wouldn't complain if someone bigger and stronger than you physically assaults you?

It's a very worrying precedent, I'm sure you'll agree.

Also, could you please point out exactly where it was said that the kids mocked the old man, or said "You can't touch me"? All I've seen was that they said no when he first asked them to put their feet down. That doesn't warrant being assaulted, does it?

Would you shop him in for teaching a little scrote a lesson in manners and respect? I wouldn't.

Yes, if I was on the train I would have reported him for assault. If it was a kid attacking a pensioner for doing something that annoyed them, would you let that slide too as them "teaching the guy a lesson"? I think not.

 

[miami]

Indeed it has. Which is a big part of the reason one sees antisocial behaviour on public transport- smoking, drinking, feet on seats, swearing- that we simply didn't see even 20 years ago.

The old guy asked the kids to behave three or four times, and they took the p!ss out of him for it. It's a real shame the little scrote chose to learn his lesson the hard way.

I don't see any of that (well drinking yes, but then they sell the stuff on the train, and it doesn't affect me. Indeed I've been known to imbibe on occasion - the Caledonian Sleeper lounge car is the stuff of legends).

 

[DarloRich]

If it was a kid attacking a pensioner for doing something that annoyed them, would you let that slide too as them "teaching the guy a lesson"? I think not.

I think that is an interesting point - what would the response be if it were a 16 year old assaulting a weak/frail old man?

 

[Tetchytyke]

There's nothing wrong with telling off children, but resorting to physical force is wrong and suggests that the person in question lacks real authority.

The problem is that there's a hardcore of little scrotes who believe that nobody has authority. Not other passengers, not the guard, not the police. There's a lot of it in these "deprived" northern towns like Blackburn. Bradford, my old town, has gangs of kids hanging around at night that can, at best, be described as feral.

It's a small minority, a very small minority, but a visible one.

The old man should have risen above the situation and moved on.

I'd agree with you, but I can understand why he didn't, especially once they started taking the **** out of him. I'm sure there was a fair chunk of anger at being mocked by some jumped up little scrote. I can't blame him for it.

It's all well and good saying that he shouldn't get involved. But as several people have pointed out on this thread, guards can't do much about it (apparently there's a "duty of care" that only works one way) and the BTP are so overstretched that they won't do anything about it. No, it probably wasn't worth it, but I can't help but applaud someone who does stand up to the little scrotes now and again.

 

[headshot119]

To notion that people cannot be ejected at unmanned stations seems ridiculous (and very unfair on on-train staff).

If somebody is ejected from a nightclub because they are too drunk, there's no expectation that the nightclub would owe them a duty of care afterwards. Why should the railway be any different? If you're ejected at an unmanned station due to your behaviour, order a cab, walk, or whatever! Why should it be the railway's problem.

If "children" of whatever age are deemed old enough by their parents/carers to travel by train unsupervised, then surely they are also deemed old enough to deal with the consequences of being chucked off said train if they cause a nuisance to staff or other passengers (I'm thinking especially here of rowdy school kids).

Once again, too much emphasis on bloody rights and not enough on responsibilities!

As someone who works in the nightclub industry I can tell you that the above statement is wrong.

Local police and the licensing authority require us to demonstrate policies showing that we have a duty of care to anyone who we eject from the premises; this includes children 14+ as we host live music events permitting that age group.