Pensioner against feet on seats

[All Line Rover]

You might not like it, but railway staff are trained to have a duty of care towards minors. You cannot just remove them and hope for the best.

You cannot be "trained to have a duty of care". That said, it is only to be expected that train operators, like any organisation dealing with the public, have child protection policies in place.

I sincerely hope you're never in a position where you have to make a decision about this. The care of vulnerable people is paramount, even where they are making your life hell.

Sadly I no longer have access to the ejection policies of any TOCs but regardless of any amateur reading of law either of us might be doing, you should not just chuck off kids whom you know to have no money or other means of getting home. If that means conveying them until the police turn up, then so be it.

If nothing else you'd be opening yourself up to potentially months of crap from your employer.

I'll let others wonder about amateur readings of the law.

 

[snail]

Yep, a £50 on ONE TOC. Others generally don't care about it or ignore it. It's not a massive issue really, is it?

It was a Northern train. In the past year stickers have been appearing on their trains saying "Bums on seats please, shoes on floor". So they aren't ignoring it but equally aren't going to the Merseyrail extreme. And rightly so IMO, it's irritating but not dangerous. A bit like your average 10 year old can be, especially on a day out with their mates?

https://twitter.com/sergiartigas/status/669147635140403200

 

[TheKnightWho]

If a child, or adult for that matter, refused to comply then force would have been used, unfortunately asking people nicely doesn't always work.

Why are you saying that ordinary citizens should take the law into their own hands? Vigilantism is illegal.

 

[LowLevel]

I can't believe there's a nigh on ten page discussion about chucking kids off trains

As a former station Bert and current train guard, I assure you that if you leave someone who is obviously a child anywhere less than sensible you are very much for the high jump if anyone chooses to make an issue of it.

If they're causing a safety issue (constantly abusing passcoms etc) they have to be given up to the BTP who will take custody of them until they can be released to their parents (much to their disgust) or at least a supervisor/manager at a station. If you have to delay the train to allow this to happen so be it, if it's really that bad.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can't believe there's a nigh on ten page discussion about chucking kids off trains

As a former station Bert and current train guard, I assure you that if you leave someone who is obviously a child anywhere less than sensible you are very much for the high jump if anyone chooses to make an issue of it.

If they're causing a safety issue (constantly abusing passcoms etc) they have to be given up to the BTP who will take custody of them until they can be released to their parents (much to their disgust) or at least a supervisor/manager at a station. If you have to delay the train to allow this to happen so be it, if it's really that bad.

Thank you!

Much better put than I have done.

 

[sciisfun]

again, No one has responded to my comments about the positions being reversed, that is because I imagine those who are supporting this action, would be the first to say a youth viciously assaulted a poor defenceless elderly gentleman! If you tarnish every youth with the same brush and you treat them as such then they will misbehave more! I expect this kid, while being a little bit rebellious will now no longer trust and look up to the elderly! There appearers to be a divide on this forum between those who still think its acceptable to beat children as a punishment, and those who have joined the 21st century and understand that the way we used to deal with things isn't always the best.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I expect this kid, while being a little bit rebellious will now no longer trust and look up to the elderly! There appearers to be a divide on this forum between those who still think its acceptable to beat children as a punishment, and those who have joined the 21st century and understand that the way we used to deal with things isn't always the best.

My personal view on what you say above is that those youngsters never had any respect for anyone and this incident most certainly will not be the crux that causes them not to look up to anyone of any age.

 

[Harbornite]

My personal view on what you say above is that those youngsters never had any respect for anyone and this incident most certainly will not be the crux that causes them not to look up to anyone of any age.

Do you think the old man did the right thing in using physical force against the child?

 

[gsnedders]

Why are you saying that ordinary citizens should take the law into their own hands? Vigilantism is illegal.

Citizen's arrests exist, but in England and Wales only for indictable offences and breach of the peace, and the only thing that is an indictable offence in the original article is the battery by the elderly gentlemen… I'm fairly certainly not even the most aggressive lawyer would try to claim feet on a seat is a breach of the peace.

 

[Antman]

again, No one has responded to my comments about the positions being reversed, that is because I imagine those who are supporting this action, would be the first to say a youth viciously assaulted a poor defenceless elderly gentleman! If you tarnish every youth with the same brush and you treat them as such then they will misbehave more! I expect this kid, while being a little bit rebellious will now no longer trust and look up to the elderly! There appearers to be a divide on this forum between those who still think its acceptable to beat children as a punishment, and those who have joined the 21st century and understand that the way we used to deal with things isn't always the best.

The fact that nobody responded says it all:roll:

Anyway do enlighten us to how you propose to punish children for doing wrong.

 

[GarethJohn]

We've chucked kids off numerous times and on quite a few occasions we've been thanked by the passengers for doing so.

We will not tolerate any anti social behaviour or tampering with CFAs, emergency door egresses, passcoms or PA systems, doing so will see them ejected at the earliest opportunity and if that means stopping especially to do so, so be it.

Even if it is the last train of the day too. Did it a while back, with them smoking, drinking and doing most of the above, they were about 13-15, no money, no tickets and we're being abusive and disruptive, so got dumped.

The next train was something like 0530 the next morning. The crew of the following train were told not to take them either. They had a nice 6 mile walk home, pity it wasn't raining.

And what about Child abusing Pensioners? Do you throw them off or detain them in an arm lock and wait for BTP

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do you think the old man did the right thing in using physical force against the child?

Not at all. He committed an offence in what he did.
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The fact that nobody responded says it all:roll:

Anyway do enlighten us to how you propose to punish children for doing wrong.

In the novel "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens, when it is time for the Ghost of Christmas Present to appear to Ebenezer Scrooge, the Spirit reveals an image of two emaciated waifs of very poor appearance to Scrooge and when Scrooge asks if anything can be done for them, the Spirit then reminds Scrooge of his very own words uttered recently....
"Are there no prisons. Are there no workhouses"

Not a great distance away from where we live, there is the National Trust premises of Quarry Bank Mill, that was a mill owned by the Greg family and the hours of work expected of children of different ages would not be believed by some of the children of the same age group today.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Right.

Reading this I think time has come for me to say enough and I will point out that the event was a considerable time ago.

Also I'd like to apologize for any offence and upset that I have caused. However we did what we felt was the appropriate course of action at the time and being put under pressure to get out of the way and minimize the delay to other services.

 

[Flamingo]

Right.

Reading this I think time has come for me to say enough and I will point out that the event was a considerable time ago.

Also I'd like to apologize for any offence and upset that I have caused. However we did what we felt was the appropriate course of action at the time and being put under pressure to get out of the way and minimize the delay to other services.

Generic apology?

 

[bb21]

I've been feeling lenient tonight (partly because I am tired) so will just remind everyone to remain on topic. In particular, no DOO discussion, and I don't think this needs me repeating.

It is also worth pointing out that everyone is entitled to his opinion, no matter how different or how stupid one thinks it is (obviously with the usual caveats such as obeying forum rules, etc). This is not defence for bickering or attacking each other. Debate the point, not the person. Sometimes it may even be best to take a step back and admit that you cannot win every argument, because people look at things differently.

The forum cannot condone violence. In my own opinion, the older gentleman crossed the line, although his frustration can be understood. There are other ways to deal with such behaviour which can be far more effective.

 

[CarlSilva]

Does anyone know if the 'pensioner' has been identified yet, or if he's been asked for his version of events ?

 

[Busaholic]

Bring Back Birching!

(j/k before someone starts foaming at the mouth)

Do you mean Dr Birching?

I did once see a pensioner aggrieved by the behaviour of some yobs on a train in the Croydon area - he and I exchanged glances but that was as far as it went. That pensioner was unmistakeably Bernard Ingham, Margaret Thatcher's old Press Secretary, no doubt travelling home to Purley.

 

[rmt4ever]

I'd love to buy the chappy a pint and shake his hand.

 

[me123]

If a child, or adult for that matter, refused to comply then force would have been used, unfortunately asking people nicely doesn't always work.

Necessary force would be applied by the police using their training and in a controlled manner. The police force are subject to internal review and independent scrutiny and are accountable for their actions.

Now I don't know anything about this man's background. What I do know is that he is not an on duty police officer and as such his actions constitute assault. I do know that he was a passenger and as such has no authority to use force in this instance. The offence frankly had nothing to do with him.

To take another analogy, if I were to see a child littering in the street there is no acceptable course of action that would lead to me (as a member of the public) causing that child physical pain. Surely any sane person can see that.

I am frankly disgusted that so many people are condoning and even promoting the assault of a child.

 

[Antman]

Necessary force would be applied by the police using their training and in a controlled manner. The police force are subject to internal review and independent scrutiny and are accountable for their actions.

Now I don't know anything about this man's background. What I do know is that he is not an on duty police officer and as such his actions constitute assault. I do know that he was a passenger and as such has no authority to use force in this instance. The offence frankly had nothing to do with him.

To take another analogy, if I were to see a child littering in the street there is no acceptable course of action that would lead to me (as a member of the public) causing that child physical pain. Surely any sane person can see that.

I am frankly disgusted that so many people are condoning and even promoting the assault of a child.

Oh get over yourself eh?

Without going over all this again people are sick and tired of the yob culture in this country.
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I'd love to buy the chappy a pint and shake his hand.

I'm sure you're not the only one

 

[Jonny]

Oh get over yourself eh?

Without going over all this again people are sick and tired of the yob culture in this country.

None of which justifies thuggery of the type perpetrated by the old man. Some people have severely distorted values and a thirst for what can only be described as revenge. They seem to think that the slightest technical breach deserves to be met with violence. The old man deserves punishment for excessive force, including a review of any driving licence(s) held in case he tries to use a vehicle as a weapon.

The old man is a thug looking for an excuse, and a bully who picks on those smaller than him.

 

[PauloDavesi]

Regardless of the actions of the children, this was an assault on a young child by an adult, which is totally unacceptable.

It is worrying that many here, including some who work in customer facing roles in the industry, consider such actions to be acceptable.

I hope that the person concerned is interviewed by the police and then charged with the most serious offence possible.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Trouble is he did what a lot of us would want to do (but never would). Some kids when they are in a group are rude and cocky to show off to their mates which escalates the situation. He should have spoken to the Guard and let him/her handle it.

 

[Class377]

Oh get over yourself eh?

Without going over all this again people are sick and tired of the yob culture in this country.
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I'm sure you're not the only one

Reading your posts - where you keep congratulating this old man for his physical assault and say that many others would want to do the same - and calling two kids yobs for daring to put their feet up, I'm very worried.

Following it through to a logical conclusion would suggest you support mob justice, where you'd advocate a large roaming group of old men attacking and assaulting kids for the most minor of offences. That's almost rioting, and is extremely troubling.

I'd suggest there are much bigger issues to deal with in the world than kids putting their feet up, and if you get so worked up about it that you'd want to assault defenceless and vulnerable kids over it I suggest you find an alternative to public transport.

 

[TheKnightWho]

The fact that nobody responded says it all:roll:

Anyway do enlighten us to how you propose to punish children for doing wrong.

How do you think anyone copes since they banned this sort of thing? Or are you one of those people who believes anyone under 20 is a vicious hoodlum out to beat you up?
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Oh get over yourself eh?

Without going over all this again people are sick and tired of the yob culture in this country.

Have we gone back to 2005? I thought the tabloids had moved on.

Every generation in history has insulted and derided the one that came after - clearly yours is no different.

 

[Harbornite]

Oh get over yourself eh?

Without going over all this again people are sick and tired of the yob culture in this country.
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I'm sure you're not the only one

This sounds like you are regurgitating the crap you've read in the sun et al. It's OK to be concerned about youth behavior, but an old an should not be putting 11 year olds into arm locks.
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I'd love to buy the chappy a pint and shake his hand.

For bullying a child?

 

[TheKnightWho]

This sounds like you are regurgitating the crap you've read in the sun et al. It's OK to be concerned about youth behavior, but an old an should not be putting 11 year olds into arm locks.

Don't be silly - Antman himself is said that he's not influenced by any newspapers Despite repeating what they say word for word at times...

 

[Spamcan81]

irrespective of what the kids did, if I'd been in that coach when the OAP started bending the boys arm, I'd have intervened and done the same to the OAP, and quite probably with a lot more force.

That would have made two people done for assault then. You can't criticise violence and then say you would apply the same violence as a remedy.

 

[transmanche]

Without going over all this again people are sick and tired of the yob culture in this country.

Plus ca change...

Every generation complains that the youth are less respectful and more 'yobbish' than the one before. In the 1950s the moral panic was teddy boys, 'razor gangs' and rock'n'roll music. In the 1920s it was jazz music. Even back in the 1890s newspapers complained about the 'reign of terror' of the 'hooligans' - a term that came into the popular vernacular at that time.

Guess what? Kids are probably no better or worse than they were 120 years ago. There never was a 'golden age' when all children sat neatly and quietly and behaved like they were in an Enid Blyton novel.

What has changed is that inflicting pain on a child in order to control them is no longer socially acceptable. Other methods are now used to encourage good behaviour. Instilling good behaviour in a child is down to good parenting.

And guess what? There were good and bad parents in the past too...

 

[Ron Hale]

I feel that the change is that there are no longer the authority figures, police, park keepers, station masters etc. who would control such behaviour. These have been removed in the interests of efficiency and cost saving, apparently.