Penrith to Leeds via Carnforth!

[Condor7]

Following comments made on a separate thread regarding the Settle & Carlisle Line with passengers from Penrith going to Leeds (or West/South Yorkshire) having to travel to Preston or Manchester and then change to Leeds, or drive or taxi to Langwathby 5 miles away (with little or no bus service) to then travel down the S&C, I wondered about this!

Penrith has a little used platform 3 and a disused bay platform. Would anyone with greater knowledge than me provide the fore’s and against of having a direct service from Penrith to Leeds via Carnforth, & Settle jn?

 

[SickyNicky]

I don't think there's a connection from the Southbound WCML onto the Hellifield line. So you'd need a reversal. Where would that happen? Lancaster or Morecambe I suppose (if the north curve to Morecambe is still open - I don't know).

 

[yorksrob]

When the S&C was at risk of closure, the replacement Leeds - Carlisle service was planned to go that way. It would have reversed in the sidings South of Carnforth station.

 

[SickyNicky]

When the S&C was at risk of closure, the replacement Leeds - Carlisle service was planned to go that way. It would have reversed in the sidings South of Carnforth station.

Is there a connection into those sidings from the southbound WCML any more? I thought it was removed years ago.

 

[yorksrob]

Is there a connection into those sidings from the southbound WCML any more? I thought it was removed years ago.

I think there might be to some of them. A couple of weekends ago when the WCML engineering works were on, I went by and saw what looked like a current Virgin trains unit parked up there.

Tracksy appears to confirm this.

 

[SickyNicky]

I think there might be to some of them. A couple of weekends ago when the WCML engineering works were on, I went by and saw what looked like a current Virgin trains unit parked up there.

Tracksy appears to confirm this.

Yeah, you're right, there is. Not ideal, but it would work. Of course, I'm not sure who the target customer might be.

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah, you're right, there is. Not ideal, but it would work. Of course, I'm not sure who the target customer might be.

I do like Penrith, however I'd be more likely to get this service if one could still continue towards Keswick !

 

[xotGD]

Two services from Carlisle, one via Penrith and Lancaster, the other via the S&C. They then join up at Skipton to save a path down Airedale, once the platforms are extended.

Operated by 3-car bimodes. Tilting optional.

 

[markindurham]

Is there a connection into those sidings from the southbound WCML any more? I thought it was removed years ago.

Yes, the connection is still there. Carnforth North Junction. Facing crossover immediately south of where the WCML platforms were.

http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/carlisle#T_CRNF

 

[randyrippley]

Following comments made on a separate thread regarding the Settle & Carlisle Line with passengers from Penrith going to Leeds (or West/South Yorkshire) having to travel to Preston or Manchester and then change to Leeds, or drive or taxi to Langwathby 5 miles away (with little or no bus service) to then travel down the S&C, I wondered about this!

Penrith has a little used platform 3 and a disused bay platform. Would anyone with greater knowledge than me provide the fore’s and against of having a direct service from Penrith to Leeds via Carnforth, & Settle jn?

Is there a demand? Hard to see much point in the service.
And whats the problem changing at Lancaster?
Finally, you'd conflict badly with all northbound traffic when crossing from the WCML up line to the sidings and reversing. Better to reverse at Lancaster

 

[6Gman]

Two services from Carlisle, one via Penrith and Lancaster, the other via the S&C. They then join up at Skipton to save a path down Airedale, once the platforms are extended.

Operated by 3-car bimodes. Tilting optional.

Or use bi-mode 442s.

 

[Condor7]

It would take someone more in the know than me to say if there would be a demand but my gut feeling is yes. Obviously Carlisle passengers would use the more direct Settle & Carlisle line, so the main two stations would be Penrith and Oxenholme. As mentioned Penrith would be an idea starting point as it has platform 3 which is very rarely used for passenger trains and more for looping freight. There is also a bay platform that could be opened up where a short passenger train could ‘park up’ for a while if needed.

Both stations are very busy and support frequent stopping expresses with substantial numbers, and as mentioned getting to West Yorkshire is not easy involving at least one change of train and at best to Leeds a three hour plus journey time. So yes I do think there would be a demand.

 

[30907]

Windermere as a starting point and Lancaster as the reversal might work, requiring little in the way of new stock (I am assuming it takes over the existing Bentham line service). Well, it would have done 20 years ago, but I suspect it would just get in the way now...

 

[randyrippley]

Windermere as a starting point and Lancaster as the reversal might work, requiring little in the way of new stock (I am assuming it takes over the existing Bentham line service). Well, it would have done 20 years ago, but I suspect it would just get in the way now...

Most traffic from Morecambe is heading south, so if the existing Morecambe-Lancaster-Leeds was routed Penrith-Lancaster-Leeds few would complain. You'd probably need an extra coaching set to allow for the extended time, and a Pacer or equivalent on a Morecambe-Lancaster shuttle.

 

[Bevan Price]

If there had been a big demand for passengers between Penrith and the "Eastern" side of England, the line over Stainmoor (Penrith / Appleby / Darlington) would not have closed nearly 60 years ago.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Was that not due to cessation of coke and coal traffic as well as the high cost of double headed and banked said trains due to large engines not being permitted along the line.

 

[markindurham]

Was that not due to cessation of coke and coal traffic as well as the high cost of double headed and banked said trains due to large engines not being permitted along the line.

It certainly was - that traffic was the raison d'etre of the line being built in the first place, not passengers. Traffic levels had fallen to a level which could be transferred without problems to alternative routes - the Tyne Valley and Leeds-Carnforth - hence the closure. Passenger levels alone would never support the route, certainly west of Barnard Castle. The real shame, of course, was the demise of the route from Darlington to Middleton in Teesdale - that could be a busy commuter route now - but 57 years ago nobody could foresee modern traffic levels.

 

[yorksrob]

Although interestingly, on BR passenger maps before closure, the route via Barnard Castle was shown as a thick (main) line.