Pendos are the pits

[Metroland]

Virgin Trains has seen a 12% increase in traffic on its Manchester to London rail route during the last six months.

The train operator claimed it was winning market share from airlines for passengers travelling between the two cities.


Virgin said it now carried 77% of all passengers on the route including both rail and air journeys, according to figures from the Civil Aviation Authority, up from 75% a year ago.

Virgin Trains commercial director Graham Leech said: “We are quite literally driving airlines from the skies on short-haul domestic routes at the same time as our own services become faster and more frequent.”

He added that business travellers were being attracted on to rail services due to reliable mobile phone and Wi-Fi reception onboard Virgin’s Pendolino trains.

The operator may gain even more market share following VLM’s recent decision to cancel its London City-Manchester service.

http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/lay..._CommentArticleId=2531742&articleTitle=Virgin

 

[fireincairo]

I regularly travel on Pendolinos between London and Manchester and I love them!

Window alignment.. So what? Don't sit in those seats! Or if you do read a book or something, the windows I agree are slightly small but do you really need to see what's directly above you on a train? I can see perfectly out of them.

Tilting = Genius are far as i'm concerned. I went up to Doncaster with NXEC a month ago, and my cup of tea was having a ball dancing across the table as the horrendous train tried to out-manoeuvre a racing car.

The shop almost gives standard class people something decent to eat on a train joiurney for once and First Class meals are fantastic, well worth the ticket price, and now free Wi-Fi. Excellent!

In the end you're going from A-B, just be glad you're not stuck behind a traffic accident on the M6. Although my last journey took longer than before Network Rail "completed their upgrade".. What the hell did they do the line anyway apart from make it break down more..

 

[Geezertronic]

I regularly travel on Pendolinos between London and Manchester and I love them!

I'm with you... Window Alignment is my only BugBear. I do Birmingham International to London Euston regularly (including today) and I cannot understand some of the gripes that people have with them. A-B they are perfect.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I can partly understand the point of the Mk4 V Pendolino debate, however:

Virgin Trains runs 12 northbound and 13 southbound direct services between Glasgow Central and London Euston every weekday. Journey times peak at 4 hours 21 minutes southbound and 4 hours 10 minutes northbound. "Average" journey time is around 4 hours 30 minutes.

National Express East Coast runs 6 northbound and 7 southbound direct services between Glasgow Central and London Kings Cross.

Pendolino's apparently hold fewer seats (although i don't have any statistics to hand) than the NXEC MK4 sets. However, the MK4 sets run literally half as frequently northbound- 6 runs against 12 for Virgin Pendolino's, meaning that the NXEC traveller will have a larger number of seats within their train, but the halved frequency means that the extra seats will have theoretically been occupied by the passengers waiting longer for the next direct service.

As for the trains themselves..

I haven't actually travelled on NXEC MK4's alot before, although I have taken one between Glasgow and Kings Cross in FC, just to see how the "other side" do things.

When I walked through the SC area of seating in the carriage next to the one which houses the buffet, I actually remembered thinking to myself that it appeared to be extremely cramped with little room to stretch your legs. Luggage made things worse as well, even though my train wasn't particularly full at the point I walked through.

I don't see NXEC running trains every 20 minutes between York, Leeds and London Kings Cross. They may not need to by any means, but I think that one or two small points against the Pendolino's are very harsh.

 

[Waverley125]

NXEC run hourly to Edinburgh, with half-hourly services to Newcastle and Leeds. The latter is supposed to be getting 3tph in the next timetable change. NXEC also has competition from York (Grand Central) and Doncaster, Retford, Newark and Grantham (Hull Trains). I think they do pretty well. Average journey time London-Edinburgh is, i believe, around 4hr 20 min.

 

[Mojo]

Virgin Trains runs 12 northbound and 13 southbound direct services between Glasgow Central and London Euston every weekday. Journey times peak at 4 hours 21 minutes southbound and 4 hours 10 minutes northbound. "Average" journey time is around 4 hours 30 minutes.

National Express East Coast runs 6 northbound and 7 southbound direct services between Glasgow Central and London Kings Cross.

Hardly a fair comparison IMO, given that Glasgow is off their main route. It would be like comparing Virgin from Edinburgh. A perhaps more fair comparison would be with their Edinburgh services.

I have never understood this thing about calling the ECML the "premier" service though, as you quite rightly say [not quoted], frequencies and the clockface nature of the ECML are quite poor, it doesn't help that there are not that many major places covered by some journeys unlike services on the GWML which pass through Reading, Swindon, Bristol (Parkway) and Cardiff. With no disrespect to the people of Peterborough, Doncaster and Wakefield; they're hardly in the same league as Reading and Bristol (although populations between Peterborough & Reading are quite similar).

 

[Mintona]

I am not a huge fan of 390s. The tilt is amazing but as someone very tall I have little legroom. Although I appreciate they can't be built to suit everyone. Better legroom than a lot of other trains.
I prefer the Mallard Mk IV on the ECML though, a much more pleasant journey I reckon.
(Never done FC on the ECML but on a 390 it was amazing!)

 

[stut]

It's hardly the size of Peterborough or Doncaster themselves that's important, but rather the catchment area of the stations, including connections - which, for example for Peterborough, includes most of East Anglia.

 

[Metroland]

The ECML is certainly not the busiest by a long way, but its intercity services earn some of the most money. Money tends to be made on distance travelled per passenger, note the difference between the passenger journeys and total distance travelled, SWT has ten times the number of passengers, but not that much more total distance travelled.

Most of the money on the ECML tends to be made from passengers coming from Peterborough, York and Leeds, followed by Doncaster and Newcastle. It's not so much the population (York, Doncaster and Peterborough are very modest size places) it's the typical journey patterns, some of which is defined by geography, some by economics, some by the pattern of the network and also speed. I guess on the face it it, its impressive the East coast towns produce more passenger KMs, and slightly less passenger journeys, than the WCML, which services some of the biggest conurbations in the country: Manchester, Merseyside, Birmingham, and the not insubstantial Stoke, Milton Keynes, Wolverhampton, Preston, and Glasgow.

National Express East Coast

Passenger Journeys, 2007 - 08: 18.7 million
Passenger kilometres, 2007 - 08: 4,301.9 million

National Express East Anglia

Passenger Journeys, 2007 - 08: 110 million
Passenger kilometres, 2007 - 08: N/A

Virgin Trains

Passenger Journeys, 2007 - 08: 19.8 million
Passenger kilometres, 2007 - 08: 3,747.3 million

First GW (includes all local services)

Passenger Journeys, 2007 - 08: 76.3 million
Passenger kilometres, 2007 - 08: 4,736.4 million

South West trains

Passenger Journeys, 2007 - 08: 174.7 million
Passenger kilometres, 2007 - 08: 4,897.8 million

Southeastern

Passenger Journeys, 2007 - 08: 145.9 million
Passenger kilometres, 2007 - 08: 3,356.7 million


The busiest intercity line is the WCML, and the busiest lines are out of Waterloo, Liverpool street, London Bridge and Victoria in that order, but people are travelling shorter distances.

 

[MCR247]

I can partly understand the point of the Mk4 V Pendolino debate, however:

Virgin Trains runs 12 northbound and 13 southbound direct services between Glasgow Central and London Euston every weekday. Journey times peak at 4 hours 21 minutes southbound and 4 hours 10 minutes northbound. "Average" journey time is around 4 hours 30 minutes.

National Express East Coast runs 6 northbound and 7 southbound direct services between Glasgow Central and London Kings Cross.

Pendolino's apparently hold fewer seats (although i don't have any statistics to hand) than the NXEC MK4 sets. However, the MK4 sets run literally half as frequently northbound- 6 runs against 12 for Virgin Pendolino's, meaning that the NXEC traveller will have a larger number of seats within their train, but the halved frequency means that the extra seats will have theoretically been occupied by the passengers waiting longer for the next direct service.

As for the trains themselves..

I haven't actually travelled on NXEC MK4's alot before, although I have taken one between Glasgow and Kings Cross in FC, just to see how the "other side" do things.

When I walked through the SC area of seating in the carriage next to the one which houses the buffet, I actually remembered thinking to myself that it appeared to be extremely cramped with little room to stretch your legs. Luggage made things worse as well, even though my train wasn't particularly full at the point I walked through.

I don't see NXEC running trains every 20 minutes between York, Leeds and London Kings Cross. They may not need to by any means, but I think that one or two small points against the Pendolino's are very harsh.

I personally prefer penods, and understand what you mean, but the thing is, the WCML has just had a major upgrade. The ECML still has places like the Welwyn viaduct, and I suppose EMT crossing the line twice dosent help with more paths

 

[Waverley125]

the ECML does need an upgrade-a new welwyn viaduct and re-quadrupling over Holme fen being two of the major improvements. And while Peterborough and doncaster may not be the most auspicious of place,s I'd argue that Reading and Swindon certainly aren't either. It is, as has been said, the catchment area for those stations which is key.

For Peterborough, this is: Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgesire, South East Lincolnshire, Rutland & East Leicestershire. Places like Norwich, Cambridge, Ipswich, Spalding, Stamford, Melton Mowbray & Kings Lynn all feed into Peterborough station, which makes it a very important interchange.

The ECML is the 'premier' route because of it's history, and because it serves the most glamorous capital-capital market of London-Edinburgh. I'd also argue that, up until NXEC took over, it was one of the few lines with a proper train livery, rather than some plastic-ky rubbish.

 

[ukrob]

The ECML is the 'premier' route because of it's history, and because it serves the most glamorous capital-capital market of London-Edinburgh. I'd also argue that, up until NXEC took over, it was one of the few lines with a proper train livery, rather than some plastic-ky rubbish.

I doubt many people would disagree with that!

 

[MCR247]

, it was one of the few lines with a proper train livery, rather than some plastic-ky rubbish.

So painting a train makes it plastic? Or look plastic :roll:

 

[Daimler]

So painting a train makes it plastic? Or look plastic :roll:

In this case, yes. National Express' livery makes locos & coaching stock (for some reason, units less so) look like they're made of plastic. It's one of the reasons I hate it so much!

 

[Waverley125]

i mean it just looks tacky and rubbish. GNER's livery looked classy. The only other one i particularly liked was the MML dark green livery under NEx, which is fast disappearing.

 

[45378]

I worry that the intensive scheduling of Pendolinos is resulting in many small faults not being picked up - eg failed hand driers in toilets - it's a rare one that works; failed lights in luggage racks, jammed blinds in FC.

Small stuff, but not good.


Rgds

45378

 

[Darandio]

i mean it just looks tacky and rubbish. GNER's livery looked classy. The only other one i particularly liked was the MML dark green livery under NEx, which is fast disappearing.

Although I totally agree with the fact that the liveries are not as good, I cannot really see how this adds to the argument. I remember as a child, I cried my eyes out because a HST arrived at Durham and was in BR blue livery and I wanted Intercity. All the crying persuaded my dad to wait for the next service in the hope that I would get what I wanted. Might sound strange but I was 3-4 years old and it seems we are still getting a similar reaction now.

 

[Waverley125]

maybe it is an emotional thing, but TBH i don't want trains to look like buses. Stagecoach's livery is fine on buses, but on trains it looks a bit rubbish. Trains, in my opinion, don't look good in a load of different colours, but in one primary colour with a little extra. GNER's blue and Red was good with this. I also like Virgin and Southern's livery, and don't mind FGWs.

 

[generalvegitable]

I always thought that the stagecoach liveries looked cool and modern

 

[CosherB]

I use the Pendos extensively between Wilmslow and Euston. Before that, for many years I used the loco-hauled Mk3s. There can be no doubt that the Pendos are technically superior - faster, much better accelleration, and more reliable. But they are an ergonomic disaster! They have a clasutrophobic, cramped interior like an aircraft cabin. The old Mk3s were so spacious in comparison. What gives the Pendos this crampness is the inward-tilted sides together with the very small windows. Those great big picture-windows in the Mk3s were a delight! And in 1st class in a Mk3, all the seats are aligned with the windows; in a Pendo, some 1st class seats don't even have a window!

To see how a high speed (faster than a Pendo) tilting train can be designed to have a good, airy interior, take a look at the Advanced Passenger Train. That was built a few decades ago by BR but binned when the engineers couldn't get the finance they needed to properly develop it - so they sold the tilt technology to the Italians. And we have now bought that back off them as the Pendos use that (now fully developed) technology!

Pity they are so inferior (to the Mk3s and the APT) as far as their interiors are concerned.

 

[andy13]

I don't understand why virgin didn't just refurb their mark 3's??

the pendolinos are:

smelly
cramped
noisy
tacky/cheap looking
small windows
air con always faulty
less tables
no pull down windows

just a few to mention....

I can definitly see why they got the worst vote i hate them! just look how pleasant it is travelling on a grand central hst

refurbed as new
very spacious
clean toilets
expensive looking
nice big windows
125 mph
air con that works
mark 3 carriage's a tested and proven reliable piece of british engineering, fantastic!

any1 that preferes a pendo over a refurbed mark 3 running at 125 mph is either daft or stupid, I'm sure most of you will agree....

 

[87031]

Without doubt these are the worst trains ever to cover a mainline route such as the west coast. I travelled many times between London-Glasgow in 1986-89 as a huge fan of 87s and i was appauled when i travelled on a Pendolino for the first time, the ride quality was poor loads of rattling first class was average and not that comfortable. It saddens me to think this great line now is dominated by these pieces of nasty junk. Virgin have lost sight that its not just about quantity but people want quality and thats what you get in a Mk3. Id rather take an extra 20 mins on the journey on a decent train instead of quicker time (which they struggle to keep to). I clocked 110K in 3 years on 87s and never had 1 failure! ok they may have not always been on time but that was never the fault of the loco doin the job. These where a huge mistake by Virgin and i doubt they will stand the test of time like the 87s did and with same reliabilty. Shame on you Virgin Trains!

 

[dan_atki]

Enough of the squabbling... back on topic please.

 

[williamn]

Id rather take an extra 20 mins on the journey on a decent train instead of quicker time (

But I would guess that most people would disagree - general public. And in terms of marketing the service speed is a great plus point.

I'm not a huge fan of Pendos - though they look good on the outside. Standard is so clamped, so I always try and go First - and Virgin also seem to have the best First Class service, its really excellent.

 

[Geezertronic]

I think some of the negative points raised about the Pendolino's are absolute crap to be honest. Yes they are not the best trains in the UK but you could suggest that when the newer trains (like the Class 395 and to a lesser extent the Class 222) were being spec'd, learnt lessons from the Class 390 (and also the Class 220/221) were taken into consideration.

To suggest that Virgin were wrong to go with the Pendolino is ridiculous as the improvements on the WCML are partly due to the Pendolino and the quicker service it offers.

Being a frequent traveller in either Standard or First Class, I share a select few of the views that are raised about the Class 390 but to be honest, the only real issue I have with them is that of Window to Seat Alignment.

 

[mathmo]

Window/seat alignment and the stupid stupid rattling window blinds are my bugbears. Otherwise they're really not too bad.

 

[Metroland]

I can't help thinking that if short 2-10 mile 'cut-offs' were built around the problem curves (Berkhampstead, Leighton Buzzard, Weedon, Polsworth, around Stafford and Colwich, Congleton) could have avoided having tilting trains, which don't suit the UK loading gauge. I'd have given Virgin exclusive use of the fast lines south of Crewe, and signalled them with TVM430 and had a Javelin type train, for 140mph and grade separation where possible. It's the same principal as road bypasses, you don't put in tilting cars to drive along badly laid out roads!

Virgin proposed something similar for the ECML as well, which should also have the same treatment and is more suited to compete for Anglo-Scottish traffic anyway.

The progressive cut offs, along the ECML and WCML, Transpennine lines (and maybe a reopened GCR) could have gone together to eventually form a wider high speed line strategy which could have been incrementally put in as capacity/speed demands.

This is much more akin to the German HSR model and was thought of by Virgin, but some of the short-sightedness stopped it from Government and the SRA. In future this will be seen as a huge mistake especially as I understand all the WCML's reliability problems are caused by the patch and mend nature of the whole product.

 

[j0hn0]

I went on four different trains to Holyhead and back yesterday.

It went LM 350/2 Desiro, Refurbed Virgin Voyager, ATW 158 and a 390 pendo.

I got on a pendo at New st for the last leg and it was just a joy to be on a proper train.

Desiro - seats uncomfortable and small
Refurbed Voyager - seats are too high off the ground for some reason, I'm 6ft and felt my legs were nearly dangling, cramped interior
ATW 158 - Great air-con but far too noisy and shaky for a long trip, I felt I was still vibrating as I got off at New St.

I understand what people say about the seat alignment but I don't find Pendos cramped. I had good leg room but made sure to get a seat at a window. Pendo seats are much more comfortable than the new Voyager seats, why is this?

Other than seat alignment, all bad experiences I've had on a Pendo have now been fixed it seems. I heard no rattles, no smells and after being on the other trains, the smooth acceleration, the effortless speed and of course the tilting make it the best train in Britain at the moment for me.

They look brilliant tilting through Rugby at high speed but I just wish that they would change the silly yellow smiley face on the front.

 

[rail-britain]

I can't help thinking that if short 2-10 mile 'cut-offs' were built around the problem curves (Berkhampstead, Leighton Buzzard, Weedon, Polsworth, around Stafford and Colwich, Congleton) could have avoided having tilting trains, which don't suit the UK loading gauge

The main advantage to the tilt is on line speeds of greater than 100mph where the costs of making the line straighter would be too high
The primary reason for tilt is the sections in Cumbria and Southern Scotland
In the other sections it is helpful, increasing the line speed by about 25mph and reducing the journey time by about 10%

 

[Metroland]

If the cost of the WCML had been £2bn, fair enough. But for £9bn, I question if those short sections of new line would have been more cost effective and the whole lot more reliable and quicker.