Pendolinos ordered for Poland

[HSTEd]

And if each of those incidents were just a little more severe in magnitude, then what? Is it wrong to persevere for higher levels of safety?

Give me the choice between a Pendo and Mk4, I know which I'd rather be sitting in when there's a collision/derailment/neutron star collision.

The question is where you draw the line, what is a reasonable trade off?
If we aren't careful we could end up with every vehicle weighing in at fifty tonnes or more and speed limits on the trains of 79mph or something insane like that......

 

[Pumbaa]

The question is where you draw the line, what is a reasonable trade off?
If we aren't careful we could end up with every vehicle weighing in at fifty tonnes or more and speed limits on the trains of 79mph or something insane like that......

Hopefully advancements in building/welding techniques or composite materials render that scenario avoidable. That's one for the engineers; safety first though then speed and weight. As safe as possible, as light as possible and as fast (where applicable) as possible.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Will they remember to specify windows in them, something Virgin appeared to overlook?

I'm sorry but I've never really understood this argument. Id rather have a seat and not have a very good window view rather than stand up for any length of time. Not only that but the Pendolino's are a damn sight safer than the trains that they replaced. So lets face it everyone wins.

 

[YorkshireBear]

And if each of those incidents were just a little more severe in magnitude, then what? Is it wrong to persevere for higher levels of safety?

Give me the choice between a Pendo and Mk4, I know which I'd rather be sitting in when there's a collision/derailment/neutron star collision.

Gonna be frank here, i think id rather be in a galaxy far far away if that happens, no pendo will save me from that!

It is always right to persever for higher levels of safety but there comes a point when it just isnt reasonable, not saying the pendo is.... just that one day we may pass the line.

 

[Schnellzug]

And if each of those incidents were just a little more severe in magnitude, then what? Is it wrong to persevere for higher levels of safety?

Give me the choice between a Pendo and Mk4, I know which I'd rather be sitting in when there's a collision/derailment/neutron star collision.

So should the almost incalculably remote chance of a high-severity-magnitude accident over-ride any other considerations of comfort or Convenience? Can you really never be "too careful"? The only way one could persevere for the highest imaginable levels of safety would be to insist that passengers wear seatbelts at all times and is all strapped into undirectional seats like in a Space Shuttle on re-entry. If one was really worried about the maximum possible levels of Safety, you'd never even get to the station since the chances of being injured or killed on your way there, on foot or by car, are vastly greater.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
..

The question is where you draw the line, what is a reasonable trade off?
If we aren't careful we could end up with every vehicle weighing in at fifty tonnes or more ......

Voyagers and Desiros aren't far off that ...

 

[Nym]

Desiros do weigh up to 53 tonnes per carrage...

 

[HSTEd]

Desiros do weigh up to 53 tonnes per carrage...

I was actually referring to Amcans in that statement...... but don't those new Irish DMUs weigh in at 63 tonnes each which is rather insane.

 

[notadriver]

Don't they have an engine on each coach though?

 

[Nym]

185s do yes, but tbh, even if they didn't the axle weight restrictions would still apply, so the redundancy if in eco mode or the excrement removal from shovel performance when not is nice to have. Especially with how tight the timetables are now on TPE NW.

 

[junglejames]

I never got why the 390s are so cramped inside? Surely the Mark IV body shell profile would have fitted inside the loading gauge with tilt equipment installed since that was what was planned in the first place.

Is the gauging on the ECML just more generous or something?

I beleive the Mk4s were designed for a lesser degree of tilt than the bendy pendys.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sorry but I've never really understood this argument. Id rather have a seat and not have a very good window view rather than stand up for any length of time. Not only that but the Pendolino's are a damn sight safer than the trains that they replaced. So lets face it everyone wins.

Now we know why they have small windows. Its so everyone can get a seat!!!

Anyway, as mentioned, it is because of more than just crashworthiness. Its more to do with the degree of tilt, and our loading gauge.

Anyway, I think we all know virgin never specified small windows. However it is an old running joke which will never die. Theres no harm in it. Just like theres no harm in having a window you cant see out of.... oops

 

[185]

Pendolino sets were delivered 6 years ago for Slovenia's ICS / Slovensk Zeleznicy - seats all line up with windows, and the window blinds are motorised!

Proves it's possible.

 

[MCR247]

Not all, and they are mostly tables, I mean we could try that with 390s but I'm not sure everyone that uses them would be pleased

 

[HSTEd]

Well if the 390 production line stays open I might as well hope that XC might get some for some routes that will be largely electrified as part of the GWR electrification with drags for the parts that arent.

Although that isnt going to be practical without more infill in the midlands.

 

[Schnellzug]

444 motor coaches are, according to the labels on the end, 55 tonnes each! I hope this means that if nothing else, they'd be built to last, and perhaps impervious to anti-tank gunfire.

 

[Drsatan]

444 motor coaches are, according to the labels on the end, 55 tonnes each! I hope this means that if nothing else, they'd be built to last, and perhaps impervious to anti-tank gunfire.

Well they look more robust than the coaches of a 377!

Back on track, I think PKP's wasting money by ordering Pendolinos without tilt. The money could be spent on replacing track and improving average speeds. I took an 'osobowy' (local) train from Katowice to Krakow once and the train never went above 40mph, plus the track was worn out - you could hear the gaps between the rails.

 

[Schnellzug]

Well they look more robust than the coaches of a 377!

Back on track, I think PKP's wasting money by ordering Pendolinos without tilt. The money could be spent on replacing track and improving average speeds. I took an 'osobowy' (local) train from Katowice to Krakow once and the train never went above 40mph, plus the track was worn out - you could hear the gaps between the rails.

I think they're almost certainly for "prestige" purposes, but since PKP Intercity is now a separate company from PR (the regional side), i suppose they want to be aiming a bit upmarket. They've got some new Tauruses from Siemens (design speed 200 km.h) as well, and new hauled stock.

 

[Drsatan]

I think they're almost certainly for "prestige" purposes, but since PKP Intercity is now a separate company from PR (the regional side), i suppose they want to be aiming a bit upmarket. They've got some new Tauruses from Siemens (design speed 200 km.h) as well, and new hauled stock.

When I traveled from Katowice to Warsawza Centralna on an EIC (Express InterCity) service my mate whom I was traveling with said the train was a lot better than the hourly Voyager from Exeter St Davids to Birmingham New Street! The coaches used on that particular service did seem quite new. On the other hand, now that PR and PKP Intercity are now seperate companies (PKP's only a holding company now, every single area of Polish railways has been divided into seperate companies), you end up with scenarios like PR not accepting PKP Intercity tickets on its services, and both companies deciding the only way to save money is to withdraw services and shorten trains.

 

[jon0844]

Where's Justin Smith when you need him!

He's stuck in an incredibly tight seat and with no mobile coverage he hasn't been able to call anyone for help, or wave out the window he doesn't have.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I beleive the Mk4s were designed for a lesser degree of tilt than the bendy pendys.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Now we know why they have small windows. Its so everyone can get a seat!!!

Anyway, as mentioned, it is because of more than just crashworthiness. Its more to do with the degree of tilt, and our loading gauge.

Anyway, I think we all know virgin never specified small windows. However it is an old running joke which will never die. Theres no harm in it. Just like theres no harm in having a window you cant see out of.... oops

I was referring to the point that the seats don't always line up with the windows due to the use of airline seating patterns which allow more people to have a seat.

And on the subject of gawping out of the window, what exactly is there to look at? Other than the Wembley Arch at night, what else is there to see until you get north of Lancaster? Not much!

 

[johnnychips]

I took an 'osobowy' (local) train from Katowice to Krakow once and the train never went above 40mph, plus the track was worn out - you could hear the gaps between the rails.

The 'express' train I took last year on the same route, costing a lot more than an 'osobowy', didn't seem to go any faster: it just stopped at fewer stations. Track improvements are a must unless this is just a particularly bad route.

 

[markskoda]

Even if you get a seat at a window the plastic seat backs in second class reflect in the glass making it difficult to enjoy the view during the day and just about impossible from dusk on. Design failure in my book. How can they get it so wrong?

 

[ChrisCooper]

390s are not in gauge fully tilted, they are out of gauge hence the need for TASS which limits tilt.
The small windows are part of the design, there is no need for them other than for that design. The original Pendolinos in Italy have small windows and run on larger loading gauge and were built to totally different and likely much lower crash standards.
Funny how everyone loves to go on about how safe the Pendolinos are (based on one crash, and a lot of PR spin from Virgin), yet they replaced Mk3s and Mk2s, the former were always universally praised for their crashworthyness, and the latter were unsung heros. Remember one of the highest speed collisions the WCML has seen involved trains of Mk2 and Mk3s, that at Colwich. Everyone but the driver of one train survived.
To be quite honest, there isn't much you can do in a high speed collision anyway. Anyone who thinks that something like Great Heck will be fully survivable ever has a serious case of wishful thinking.

 

[dubscottie]

I was actually referring to Amcans in that statement...... but don't those new Irish DMUs weigh in at 63 tonnes each which is rather insane.

63 tonnes?????

The weights for the Irish 22000 class are..

DMSO 49.4t - 50.1t depending on toilet/van area
MS 47t
DRBFO 50.1t (Driving Restaurant Buffet First Open)
They are made from cortan steel (the stuff used for shipping containers) which may add a bit weight.

I would rather be in a Mk4 in an accident than a pendo.. Trains made from aluminum extrusions tend to come apart at the seams in accidents..

 

[ChrisCooper]

63 tonnes?????

The weights for the Irish 22000 class are..

DMSO 49.4t - 50.1t depending on toilet/van area
MS 47t
DRBFO 50.1t (Driving Restaurant Buffet First Open)
They are made from cortan steel (the stuff used for shipping containers) which may add a bit weight.

I would rather be in a Mk4 in an accident than a pendo.. Trains made from aluminum extrusions tend to come apart at the seams in accidents..

Mk4s are made from aluminium extrusions.

To be honest I don't get all this "i'd rarther be on x train than y in an accident. I'd rarther not be in a train crash at all, and if I'm going to be in a serious one then my chances of walking away or not seem to be more down to luck than anything else (afterall if doesn't matter if 1 or 100 people are killed in an accident if you or someone you care about is one of them).

 

[HSTEd]

Mk4s are made from aluminium extrusions.

To be honest I don't get all this "i'd rarther be on x train than y in an accident. I'd rarther not be in a train crash at all, and if I'm going to be in a serious one then my chances of walking away or not seem to be more down to luck than anything else (afterall if doesn't matter if 1 or 100 people are killed in an accident if you or someone you care about is one of them).

Wait, I thought they used steel?

 

[Nym]

Steel frames, aluminuium bodies. Like Land Rover have since the 80s

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Steel frames, aluminuium bodies.

I hope they have an insulating layer between the two metals at all the fixing points!

 

[Nym]

On Land Rovers or on Mk.4s? I don't think the former has any, but the steel on mine will be Galvenized, so it will be Steel on Zinc on Aluminium

 

[Peter Mugridge]

On Land Rovers or on Mk.4s?

On anything using a mix of the two metals really!

Galvanisation is fine until someone drills through the two adjoining pieces of metal to bolt something to it...

 

[Nym]

Simple solution, drill before galvenising, tap out, even then you have metal to metal contact, but it's just something to put up with, I can't remember if it's the steel or the aluminium that suffers in ferrous - non-ferrous contact though.