Pendolinos ordered for Poland

[northwichcat]

Poland's transport minister has confirmed that high speed Italian Pendolino trains will be active in the country by the close of 2014.

Minister Slawomir Nowak told Polish Radio on Friday that the trains will be employed on a route that takes in Gdansk, Warsaw, Katowice and Katowice, more or less cutting through the centre of the country from north to south.
The Italian-made trains can reach a top speed of 230 km per hour.
Nowak noted that swifter trains are already on the market – reaching 350 km per hour – but that these are not within the scope of Poland's current transport budget.

http://www.thenews.pl/1/12/Artykul/80209,Poland-to-get-Pendolino-express-trains-by-2014

 

[Schnellzug]

they already use them in the Czech Republic, so there might be scope for the beginnings of development of an eastern European international high-speed network in time, perhaps.

 

[4SRKT]

Will they remember to specify windows in them, something Virgin appeared to overlook?

 

[HSTEd]

Will they remember to specify windows in them, something Virgin appeared to overlook?

I never got why the 390s are so cramped inside? Surely the Mark IV body shell profile would have fitted inside the loading gauge with tilt equipment installed since that was what was planned in the first place.

Is the gauging on the ECML just more generous or something?

 

[MCR247]

All Pendolinos like ours are the same, small windows. Get over it.

 

[northwichcat]

Will they remember to specify windows in them, something Virgin appeared to overlook?

The problem with the Virgin spec is it seems the interior layout was designed without any consideration to where the windows are.

 

[4SRKT]

All Pendolinos like ours are the same, small windows. Get over it.

Why 'get over it' (a very patronising expression BTW)? It's a huge design flaw.

 

[tbtc]

Oh goody, another Pendolini/ windows argument

 

[YorkshireBear]

Oh goody, another Pendolini/ windows argument

What there hasn't already been any? :/

Maybe it will turn into a pacer thread while were at it.

 

[Schnellzug]

What there hasn't already been any? :/

Maybe it will turn into a pacer thread while were at it.

Oh, Poland already has plenty of those, or home-grown equivalents...

 

[387star]

The problem with the Virgin spec is it seems the interior layout was designed without any consideration to where the windows are.

True but there would be a serious lack of seating if all seats joined up with the windows?

 

[Yew]

Pavers have good views out the windows, I'm on. 3 car now.

 

[sprinterguy]

True but there would be a serious lack of seating if all seats joined up with the windows?

Which says something about the extremely generous width of the window pillars on Pendolinos to meet modern crash worthiness standards for running at up to 140mph (Which they are unlikely ever to acheive).

Good alignment of seats to windows seems to work just fine for mark 2s, mark 3s (Admittedly, the window length was optimised for the first class interior, but the alignment in standard with the original and Intercity refurb interiors was still very good), 175s and 180s without impinging on seating capacity.

 

[Pumbaa]

Which says something about the extremely generous width of the window pillars on Pendolinos to meet modern crash worthiness standards for running at up to 140mph (Which they are unlikely ever to acheive).

It's not primarily that; it's the three ribs which support the tubular design, which is so tubular in order to tilt at 8/9 degrees inside our loading guage. If we had more room to play with, and still wanted a 8/9 degree tilt, the coaches would be larger, the supports more spread out and the windows larger as a result.

Obviously yes it's to meet crash-worthy standards, but its the adaption to our loading guage which kills the window area.

 

[tbtc]

Which says something about the extremely generous width of the window pillars on Pendolinos to meet modern crash worthiness standards for running at up to 140mph (Which they are unlikely ever to acheive).

Good alignment of seats to windows seems to work just fine for mark 2s, mark 3s (Admittedly, the window length was optimised for the first class interior, but the alignment in standard with the original and Intercity refurb interiors was still very good), 175s and 180s without impinging on seating capacity.

Aligning windows was a lot simpler in the days of every seat being at a table. It won't be as easy, now airline seats are more popular. But thats another argument...

And, yes, 390s were overengineered (for 140mph tilting) considering the job they now do. If we'd known that 125mph was the limit we could have done things *so* much better. Ah, hindsight...

 

[AlterEgo]

Virgin still harbour 140mph ambitions. Indeed, Virgin argue that 135mph is possible over large swathes of the WCML. Network Rail disagree.

 

[HSTEd]

So are Mark IVs not considered suitable for 140mph running then?

I thought the size of the windows on the Pendo are simply a stylistic thing relating to the rather... eclectic interior of many Italian sets.
Aren't AGV windows larger than that? Or atleast have narrower pillars.

 

[tbtc]

So are Mark IVs not considered suitable for 140mph running then?

I thought the size of the windows on the Pendo are simply a stylistic thing relating to the rather... eclectic interior of many Italian sets.
Aren't AGV windows larger than that? Or atleast have narrower pillars.

Mark Fours can't tilt, and were built to twenty year old safety requirements

 

[Schnellzug]

Mark Fours can't tilt, and were built to twenty year old safety requirements

They were designed with it in mind, though, weren't they?

 

[MCR247]

Yes they were

 

[starrymarkb]

So are Mark IVs not considered suitable for 140mph running then?

I thought the size of the windows on the Pendo are simply a stylistic thing relating to the rather... eclectic interior of many Italian sets.
Aren't AGV windows larger than that? Or atleast have narrower pillars.

Height wise is for structural reasons, ribs run along the body above and below the windows

 

[4SRKT]

and were built to twenty year old safety requirements

Like 395s?

 

[Nym]

1) 395s Don't Tilt
2) 395s Take advantage of archaic ruling that Friction Stir Welding is stronger than Stitch, Butt or Laser welding in a crash, it just isn't.

Fiction Stir Welding removed a layer of steel or aluminium to weld the surfaces together, but results in a weak spot around the weld due to the way it changes the structure of the metal, and a few other things. (This is an opinion, it's never been seen in a crash)

Stitch and Butt Welding use traditional filler rods, Laser sometimes does, sometimes doesn't.

3) 395s have higher levels of collision avoidance thanks to using TVM430 at speeds over 100mph.

 

[notadriver]

Not quite sure about collision avoidance because of tvm430? Would it have prevented any high speed accidents such as Great Heck or Grayrigg?

 

[Pumbaa]

So are Mark IVs not considered suitable for 140mph running then?

I thought the size of the windows on the Pendo are simply a stylistic thing relating to the rather... eclectic interior of many Italian sets.
Aren't AGV windows larger than that? Or atleast have narrower pillars.

starrymarkb has answered your points. The AGV are not within our loading gauge. And see my previous answer for why they are not as wide.

It seems to be some common myth that Alstom and Virgin conspired to design the windows as small as possible - it simply isn't the case. They are at the maximum size that the design of the carriages to make them both structurally sound and fit within our loading gauge allow.

 

[MCR247]

starrymarkb has answered your points. The AGV are not within our loading gauge. And see my previous answer for why they are not as wide.

It seems to be some common myth that Alstom and Virgin conspired to design the windows as small as possible - it simply isn't the case. They are at the maximum size that the design of the carriages to make them both structurally sound and fit within our loading gauge allow.

I'm sorry Pumbaa but all of your arguments are wrong. I mean it is sooooo obvious that Sir Richard Branson himself insisted that they were built with small windows so that they were like Virgin Atlantic planes! :roll::roll:

Jheeze, get it right :roll::roll:



:P

 

[Pumbaa]

Where's Justin Smith when you need him!

 

[Erniescooper]

PKP have ordered the new Pendolino like the Tenitalia ETR600, but they have ordered it without tilt.

 

[HSTEd]

Mark Fours can't tilt, and were built to twenty year old safety requirements

The Mark 4 is designed to tilt up to six degrees, hence the shape of the bodyshell.


As for the "new safety requirements" is this more a case of insanely stiff crash regulations? It would appear that Mark IVs are safe enough being as they were praised for crashworthiness at Selby and Hatfield.

 

[Pumbaa]

As for the "new safety requirements" is this more a case of insanely stiff crash regulations? It would appear that Mark IVs are safe enough being as they were praised for crashworthiness at Selby and Hatfield.

And if each of those incidents were just a little more severe in magnitude, then what? Is it wrong to persevere for higher levels of safety?

Give me the choice between a Pendo and Mk4, I know which I'd rather be sitting in when there's a collision/derailment/neutron star collision.