Pendolinos in preservation?

[eMeS]

We're accustomed to having steam and diesel hauled trains on heritage lines, but I'm not aware of any electrically powered routes. Looking to the future, is there any likelihood that working Pendolinos will one day be revered as a preserved treat?

 

[scotsman]

It's hard to predict how future generations will view things from our present-day. It's almost certain that one will be preserved - it was the first successful tilting train in passenger service in the UK. For the same reason, a Super Voyager will likely be preserved at some point.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Would it not, theoretically at least, be possible for a heritage line to operate a preserved 390 hauled by a preserved 57?

 

[Lrd]

Would it not, theoretically at least, be possible for a heritage line to operate a preserved 390 hauled by a preserved 57?

It's also possible for them to put up some knitting if they so wished.

 

[185]

Question has to be, what happens when they are perceived to be ugly at the end of their working life, such as the Blue Pullman or Merseyrail's 503s - slung away as people couldn't wait to get rid of the past.....

The Pendo is a great train, and the UK Version makes all the other European Pendos look cheap and clunky.

Can't see it on the Llangollen somehow :P

 

[Zoe]

The issue here is that modern stock uses computers and so would be quite difficult to keep in working order once support for these computers is no longer available.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The issue here is that modern stock is uses computers and so would be quite difficult to keep in working order once support for these computers is no longer available.

Same with plane and motor racing preservation too. I think a lot of modern stock will end up as static display only because its maintenance will be far beyond the abilities of volunteers is heritage railway sheds.

 

[gazthomas]

Long time off too!

 

[sprinterguy]

The Pendo is a great train, and the UK Version makes all the other European Pendos look cheap and clunky.

I must protest at this statement, the Swiss Pendolinos (The only European Pendolinos that I have travelled on) are a fair way superior to their English counterparts in my opinion: ALL of the seats line up with the windows, 90% of them are arranged in bays of four around tables, and even the seats in standard class recline. Plus the design of the seat restricts vision throughout the carriage far less on the Swiss units, and the windows are at least 50% taller than on the UK sets, perhaps more. They're still poxy cramped trains compared to the more common loco-hauled stock, though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's hard to predict how future generations will view things from our present-day. It's almost certain that one will be preserved - it was the first successful tilting train in passenger service in the UK. For the same reason, a Super Voyager will likely be preserved at some point.

It remains to be seen whether a full Pendolino set will be preserved. Just look at the hotch-potch collection of first generation EMU vehicles that have been preserved, and you can appreciate how difficult it has been for many preservation groups to find the cash and the storage space required to preserve even just a 3-car EMU.

And the Pendolinos are fixed formation multiple units of an unprecedented length in terms of UK rail operation: What preserved railway can provide siding space of sufficient length to accommodate a full nine, or even just the original eight, carriage Pendolino formation? Remember that not even a complete APT-P rake has been preserved, only barely the minimum number of different vehicle types required to represent an APT formation. It’s hard enough for a volunteer organisation to raise sufficient funds to purchase a single locomotive at any one time, let alone an entire, complete train formation in one go.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even if a full Pendolino was to reach preservation, the factors governing its’ possible operation are similar to those for any other third rail or overhead electric traction, which have been discussed in detail on this forum in the past, as well as the pertinent points on the complexity of the electrical and computer systems utilised by modern rolling stock that have been raised above.

 

[theblackwatch]

It's hard to predict how future generations will view things from our present-day. It's almost certain that one will be preserved - it was the first successful tilting train in passenger service in the UK. For the same reason, a Super Voyager will likely be preserved at some point.

A full set isn't necessarily required to tell the Pendolino story. A single car in the NRM could probably demonstrate that.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

There are still a few cars from 33 still in existence, I'm aware virgin use some of these for training but one of these could easily fulfil a display role at the NRM now.

 

[Anon Mouse]

There are still a few cars from 33 still in existence, I'm aware virgin use some of these for training but one of these could easily fulfil a display role at the NRM now.

Aye but it aint the Flying Scotsman

 

[DarloRich]

Aye but it aint the Flying Scotsman

No it is some foreign, LMS muck - not decent proper honest LNER stuff built by blokes in a shed in Darlo or Donny.

I doubt an 11 car train would reach preservation, as has been said a vehicle or two would demonstrate the principles of tilt and show off travel standards in the first decades of the 21 century.

 

[Anon Mouse]

No it is some foreign, LMS muck - not decent proper honest LNER stuff built by blokes in a shed in Darlo or Donny.

I doubt an 11 car train would reach preservation, as has been said a vehicle or two would demonstrate the principles of tilt and show off travel standards in the first decades of the 21 century.

I still doubt the NRM would be interested as they only seem to think steam matters and plough so much money into the Flying Scotsman, fetch me that oxy torch! (although it did look good in BR condition with the smoke defectors)

 

[bnm]

It's hard to predict how future generations will view things from our present-day. It's almost certain that one will be preserved - it was the first successful tilting train in passenger service in the UK.

Wasn't the Class 221 in service before the Class 390?

 

[DarloRich]

I still doubt the NRM would be interested as they only seem to think steam matters and plough so much money into the Flying Scotsman, fetch me that oxy torch! (although it did look good in BR condition with the smoke defectors)

Philistine – if the NRM don’t run out of money before finishing the overhaul the engine will make a profit inthe end. Only Mallard and Tornado are more widely known and the dmand for haulage will be great.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Philistine – if the NRM don’t run out of money before finishing the overhaul the engine will make a profit inthe end. Only Mallard and Tornado are more widely known and the dmand for haulage will be great.

but the NRM should not make it their main priority. There's loads of stuff in the National Collection thats just rusting and decaying away that could do with just a fraction of the money spent on Flying Scotsman!

 

[Sulzer5207]

I would suggest that the following items could be considered to have some relevance to the NRM.

LEV1 is already part of the NRM, so no pacer

A class 59, the first mainline foreign diesels locos and successor to the 66, one of them holds a record as well.

A class 57, showing the 'bodysnatcher' concept

The production record HST loco - pair this with project Miller, and you have a train for mainline running!

58050 the NRM designated loco

A MPV vehicle - showing how maintenance has changed compared with when the railways were built

A class 158, showing the sprinter family, and also BR's export business, (Thailand). Would contrast well with 31018 in the BR area if returned to RR Express livery

A class 170, the 'turbostar revolution', explaining how 'off the shelf' designs became common, alongside a Desiro vehicle of some sort.

As mentioned, a class 390, showing the tilt concept, alongside the APT power car that used to be at Shildon

The desiro vehicle can be used alongside the 4VEP vehicle at York, showing the change in standards passengers came to expect with privatisation.

A class 313 showing the dual voltage ideas and flexibility, as well as the BR developed PEP design.

The record breaking 442 vehicle.

A PPM

A Eurotunnel Shuttle loco - one of the powerful ones

An S Stock vehicle, the commuter story, and the 'gangwayless' vehicles.

The record breaking 91.

A DBSO vehicle, I think one of these has already been set aside - a cost reducing idea!

a MK3 vehicle, slam doors one end, auto the other, showing the idea of a refresh programme for stock

a MK4 bogie, the 140mph idea

a HTA coal hopper, coupled with the HAA MGR hopper already in the collection,

I'm sure there's lots more, that's all I could think of however

 

[heart-of-wessex]

As commented before about the Blue Pullman, yes and then now doubt like after there was none left 'I wish we...' etc!

Would a preserved 390 be at full length? On some small preserved lines like the East Somerset Railway you wouldn't need it to move, it'll be too big for it and would call at 3 stations at once, just need to walk through the carriages to the next station!

Also, maybe people who can successfully spell Pendolino get's a ticket to join the train I would probably fail as I still have to double check if I spelt it right, 9/10 I haven't
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A MPV vehicle - showing how maintenance has changed compared with when the railways were built

Do you mean a Track machine? IIRC all an MPV does is either sandite or jetting railheads...

 

[michael769]

Same with plane and motor racing preservation too. I think a lot of modern stock will end up as static display only because its maintenance will be far beyond the abilities of volunteers is heritage railway sheds.

I would not be too sure. Current preserved stock is kept going because there are highly motivated people who either have the right mechanical skills or are willing to develop them. In future is is conceivable that that there will be people who are willing to do the same for the required IT/Electrical skills. It should be noted that the latter skills are much more prevalent in the wider population that was the case 20-30 years ago so there will be a talent pool to draw on.

There are enthusiasts who are still using obsolete 1980s home computers so it is certainly possible to keep such things running.

 

[eMeS]

Some interesting points above.

When I made my original post, I think I was more concerned about the problems surrounding the overhead electrical cables, qualifications for maintenance of same, and actually running a train around a suitable bend so as to demonstrate the tilt. Only a few static exhibits get me excited and paying money to see them.

 

[talltim]

The Swiss seem to have no problems with all sorts of preserved electric trains, proving its not beyond the wit of man

 

[Sidious]

I've often thought that the Old Dalby test track would make an excellent operating centre for preserved AC traction. I think it is still electrified and a self-contained route which sees little other use, seems perfect for preservationists to be allowed to use. I'm sure that they would be happily 'locked out' if it were required for use in future.

 

[Kali]

Once the TMS software is no use to Alstholm I'm sure they'd be ok donating it to a preservation effort. Software becomes life-expired too.

Add 60100 to the NRM list as the last gasp of home-designed mainline locomotives, it's been earmarked already by what was once the heritage committee iirc.

 

[AndyLandy]

We're accustomed to having steam and diesel hauled trains on heritage lines, but I'm not aware of any electrically powered routes. Looking to the future, is there any likelihood that working Pendolinos will one day be revered as a preserved treat?

I've posed a simlar question previously. For interest, the thread is here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60065

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've posed a simlar question previously. For interest, the thread is here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60065

This is probably more relevant to that thread than this one, but once the Southampton-Basingstoke-Reading OHLE is in place maybe all that 3rd-rail equipment can be donated to an appropriate heritage railway in the South East? As someone mentioned in that thread, various tramway museums (Beamish and Seaton for example) operate (or have operated) electric power without killing hundreds of unsuspecting tourists. 3rd-rail is more of an issue as it's at ground-level, but hopefully there'll be some solution in the future.

 

[Roverman]

According to Wikipedia (so it could be wrong) it says construction of both the 221 and the 390s started in 2001 and they both entered service in 2002.

What gets kept is always going to be a contentious issue. I've heard similar discussions in the classic car fraternity. Vaguely modern stuff like the early Rover 800s are just starting now to be considered classics yet 2 or 3 years ago you could pick up a tatty but road legal example for £250!

I for one would like the Pendolinos and the Super Voyagers represented in heritage situations, when the time is right so that future generations can see what we were using. It would also be nice to have them next to a working example of APT so we can show how the technology was slowly worked on and brought back into the mainstream.

 

[sprinterguy]

According to Wikipedia (so it could be wrong) it says construction of both the 221 and the 390s started in 2001 and they both entered service in 2002.

I saw my first class 220 Voyager, one of the first on test in the UK, in either the final quarter of 2000 or the first quarter of 2001. RAIL reported the launch of the two pre-production Pendolinos, 390001 and 390002, at the Old Dalby test track in February 2001 if I remember correctly, so it looks like the Pendolinos were first, given that the 221 build followed the 220s, though the 221s were quite possibly the first production tilting trains to enter UK service.

 

[captainbigun]

I've often thought that the Old Dalby test track would make an excellent operating centre for preserved AC traction. I think it is still electrified and a self-contained route which sees little other use, seems perfect for preservationists to be allowed to use. I'm sure that they would be happily 'locked out' if it were required for use in future.

One simple thing prevents this. Cost.

I don't think most folk have the faintest clue what sort of costs are involved on the railway. Every invoice is in thousands. Parts are hundreds, thousands, ten of thousands.

Even if you have highly motivated folk you need money, and a really big pile of it.

I cannot see a Pendo being preserved other than like the APT. The costs involved in insuring, maintaining and running would amount to 6 figures a year. It's just not feasible.

I expect to see fewer heritage locos on the mainline. The ever increasing introduction of newer technology, TPWS > OTMR > GSMR and soon ERTMS mean that the hill is getting steeper all the while. The latter is going to run to six figures per vehicle.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Once the TMS software is no use to Alstholm I'm sure they'd be ok donating it to a preservation effort. Software becomes life-expired too.

I very much doubt that. It will still contain IPR that they (Alstom) will not want to part with.

 

[AndyLandy]

I saw my first class 220 Voyager, one of the first on test in the UK, in either the final quarter of 2000 or the first quarter of 2001. RAIL reported the launch of the two pre-production Pendolinos, 390001 and 390002, at the Old Dalby test track in February 2001 if I remember correctly, so it looks like the Pendolinos were first, given that the 221 build followed the 220s, though the 221s were quite possibly the first production tilting trains to enter UK service.

I thought the order of introduction was 220, 390, 221. But that's just from my rather shaky memory of the time. It's quite possible I'm wrong.