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Pendolino testing - ECML

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junglejames

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And as for the comparing old with new, what's wrong with that? :P I prefer new, non-knackered trains.

Im getting at the fact that it has nowt to do with pendys, and purely to do with the fact its a newer train. Yes you lumped it in with the positives of a pendy. Build a modern LHCS train, and you would have virtually every good point you mention for pendys.
 
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Yew

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Can cl91's and mk4 dvt's work with mo3 coaching stock? I'm thinking that when some mk3's are released, you coul have a few rakes likethat, and rework the mk4 coaches into 11 coach trains with 91's and dvt's?
 

GNER 91128

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But wouldn't 2 extra coaches and dvt make a 91 a bit sluggish and be more work for already aging traction whose life is already trying to be extended.
 

junglejames

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I take it you're being ironic as I don't think anyone could seriously be gulled by that urban myth :P

Pendolinos have always been that narrow, and have always had windows like that, since they were first designed in the early 1980s.

Also what would Beardo be doing anywhere near train design he's far too high up/unskilled in that matter...

Whats the problem with what he said? He said exactly what I said, just in fewer words. Remember, its also the rubbish interior design which makes them so bad, and this is something pretty unique to the pendys over here. Yes the windows are pretty much the same, even on the Italian versions, but thats not the point. Its the fact such trains have been introduced here. Also, no matter who designed them, Virgin introduced them, and Mr Branson is the big man at Virgin.
To be fair, if it wasnt for the rest of the stupid design, the size of the windows would hardly be picked up on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But wouldn't 2 extra coaches and dvt make a 91 a bit sluggish and be more work for already aging traction whose life is already trying to be extended.

A 91 could handle 11 coaches. Yes they would have slightly slower acceleration, but they would handle it. Plenty of power in the old girls. As for work being done to them. Its hardly trying to extend their life as such. Just keeping them in good condition. Every train gets heavy overhauls more than once a life.

Of course, if you want to get the loss of acceleration back, just regear the locos for 125.
 

34D

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Can cl91's and mk4 dvt's work with mo3 coaching stock? I'm thinking that when some mk3's are released, you coul have a few rakes likethat, and rework the mk4 coaches into 11 coach trains with 91's and dvt's?

Well, they have worked in the same train in the past, though I believe some electrical alterations would be needed. I believe the door interlock system is completely different.

Believe I'm right in saying that a loco could talk to a mark 4 DVT via mark 4 or mark 3 coaches though.

Not enough to justify sixteen coach trains!!! I was thinking about this, you could have six coaches of first class (which would be enough to give every passenger their own coach on some trains and would also manage to be quiet on even the busiest services for first class) and still have ten standard class coaches or about double the existing capacity provided on a IC225. There is overcrowding on some EC services yes but it doesn't need combating by adding seven coaches onto the trains! Maybe one or two (you know like an 11 coach EMU for example which would also fit onto the existing infrastructure) but not a sixteen coach train (which would require such extensive modifications to the infrastructure as to make it neigh on impossible)!!

Indeed, I was suggesting something like a 2+10 or 2-11 intercity 225.
 

ainsworth74

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Of course, if you want to get the loss of acceleration back, just regear the locos for 125.

Thought that had already been done back during their first heavy overhauls (and renumbering into 911xx series)?

Indeed, I was suggesting something like a 2+10 or 2-11 intercity 225.

Yes that would be a bit more reasonable but you would lose a lot of space still in that formation to the locomotives. Also I suspect that even just inserting one or two extra coaches would still require platform extensions at some locations.
 

LE Greys

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Yes that would be a bit more reasonable but you would lose a lot of space still in that formation to the locomotives. Also I suspect that even just inserting one or two extra coaches would still require platform extensions at some locations.

They can handle 11+DVT, and 12+DVT was mooted in the early days of the project. Platforms at the major stations south of Leeds could cope with a NOL Eurostar with only one door locked out (although it would probably be rather annoying if the DVT hangs over the end all the time, how do you get bikes out?). King's Cross could cope with an NOL set on all doors, just, in P1 and (I think) P6/P7. They fit the new bays at Leeds (just). York, Darlington, Newcastle and Waverley are easily long enough. That leaves Northallerton, Durham, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick and Dunbar as possible problems.
 

GNER 373

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Is anyone gonna try and catch a glimpse of the Pendo on its run at any time?

I'm planning on popping into Newcastle Central Station for it's midnight visit Monday!
 

HSTEd

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Have you actually looked at the approaches to Kings Cross? There is no way you're going to be able to lengthen the platforms without ending up either in Gas Works tunnel or on Euston Road! It's very easy to say 'they only need to be as long as Eurostar ones' and a heck of a lot harder to actually do that.

You could probably get one or two more coaches in if you were to turn the current concourse into more platforms, but you would likely have to pull down the fancy facade which they want to be exposed....

Unless you move it forward brick by brick.
 

Bridge189

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Thought that had already been done back during their first heavy overhauls (and renumbering into 911xx series)?



Yes that would be a bit more reasonable but you would lose a lot of space still in that formation to the locomotives. Also I suspect that even just inserting one or two extra coaches would still require platform extensions at some locations.

No they are still 140 traction that straight from the horses mouth of an EC driver. I was also told that these improvements being looked at could be a double pantograph or complete re-engineering aka MTU style.
 

DarloRich

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They can handle 11+DVT, and 12+DVT was mooted in the early days of the project. Platforms at the major stations south of Leeds could cope with a NOL Eurostar with only one door locked out (although it would probably be rather annoying if the DVT hangs over the end all the time, how do you get bikes out?). King's Cross could cope with an NOL set on all doors, just, in P1 and (I think) P6/P7. They fit the new bays at Leeds (just). York, Darlington, Newcastle and Waverley are easily long enough. That leaves Northallerton, Durham, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick and Dunbar as possible problems.

Any longer EC trains would not fit in Northallerton, maily becuase of the signal posistions. There is no room to overlap the ends of the platform.. North bound the signal post is right on the end of the plat form and the loco is hard up against it. (the bi di signal at the south end of the platform is the same with the DVT hard up agaist it.)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/darlo2009/5244928118/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/darlo2009/5381624879/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/darlo2009/4693954541/

It is the same on the southbound platform. There is a shunting signal for the cattle dock right on the end of the platform and the signal protecting the loop right on the southbund end. An EC train just fits in.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/darlo2009/6589647771/
 

sprinterguy

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A 91 could handle 11 coaches. Yes they would have slightly slower acceleration, but they would handle it. Plenty of power in the old girls. As for work being done to them. Its hardly trying to extend their life as such. Just keeping them in good condition. Every train gets heavy overhauls more than once a life.

Of course, if you want to get the loss of acceleration back, just regear the locos for 125.
I've heard tell from an East Coast driver that the 91s often have difficulty in getting away from Durham against the gradient (southbound) with the current formations as they are: The 91s have got plenty of power, but difficulty in applying it to the rail because of the limitations of the Bo-bo wheel arrangement. Adding an extra couple of carriages to the formation (and as has already been said the IC225s were originally intended to be ten carriages in length) would probably exacerbate this problem but as you say regearing the 91s for a 125mph maximum would do wonders in alleviating it.

Speaking of Durham, the southbound platform at the very least would need lengthening to the north in order to fit in extended 225s, though the northbound platform might just be able to squeeze in a ten carriage train. There are also other platforms along the ECML that would exhibit similar issues like Northallerton mentioned by DarloRich above.
 

IanXC

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They can handle 11+DVT, and 12+DVT was mooted in the early days of the project. Platforms at the major stations south of Leeds could cope with a NOL Eurostar with only one door locked out (although it would probably be rather annoying if the DVT hangs over the end all the time, how do you get bikes out?). King's Cross could cope with an NOL set on all doors, just, in P1 and (I think) P6/P7. They fit the new bays at Leeds (just). York, Darlington, Newcastle and Waverley are easily long enough. That leaves Northallerton, Durham, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick and Dunbar as possible problems.

Without wanting to trigger a wholesale re timetabling of the ECML.. could the problem stations be served by north of Edinburgh services? The HSTs and presumably IEPs aren't going to suffer the same platform length problems.
 

Bridge189

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Unlikely, but I've often wondered why they didn't take on a couple of MkIII sets and re-form the MkIVs into 10+DVT rakes. Northallerton and Durham might be why.

They don't want anything non 125mph hence why NX canned the 90s idea. Elaine holt also wanted nothing non 125 but also hates 180s with a vengeance hence why no other stock was brought in last year.
 

LE Greys

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They don't want anything non 125mph hence why NX canned the 90s idea. Elaine holt also wanted nothing non 125 but also hates 180s with a vengeance hence why no other stock was brought in last year.

Loco-hauled MkIIIs have done 125 on several occasions, and 138 when testing the 67s. Since their running gear is exactly the same as HST trailers, what's stopping them doing so in service?
 

IanXC

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Loco-hauled MkIIIs have done 125 on several occasions, and 138 when testing the 67s. Since their running gear is exactly the same as HST trailers, what's stopping them doing so in service?

I think the problem is the lack of 125 electric locos rather than stock.
 

HSTEd

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Wasn't there a few formations of loco hauled Mark 3s with converted HST power cars used as stand ins for the Mk 4 rakes when the Cl91s first arrived?
 

LE Greys

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Wasn't there a few formations of loco hauled Mark 3s with converted HST power cars used as stand ins for the Mk 4 rakes when the Cl91s first arrived?

If you mean the hybrid sets, those were HSTs with 1 power car replaced by a 91 and some buffers and drawgear welded on. The other power car initially ran on idle to provide ETS, but that damaged the engines, so they fitted a modified form of TDM to allow full power, which resulted in an 8,550 hp electro-diesel. One of them did 156 mph down Stoke, which is still a record.
 

HSTEd

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If you mean the hybrid sets, those were HSTs with 1 power car replaced by a 91 and some buffers and drawgear welded on. The other power car initially ran on idle to provide ETS, but that damaged the engines, so they fitted a modified form of TDM to allow full power, which resulted in an 8,550 hp electro-diesel. One of them did 156 mph down Stoke, which is still a record.

So it would have 2250hp on diesel....... Is that enough to haul the Cl91 to Inverness in a reasonable time?
 

D1009

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Is anyone gonna try and catch a glimpse of the Pendo on its run at any time?

I'm planning on popping into Newcastle Central Station for it's midnight visit Monday!

Unless you can get some inside gen, I'd allow an hour either side of the scheduled time, these test runs are not that reliable.
 

SkinnyDave

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I spoke with a Pendolino driver an a XC driver at the Model Rail Show in Glasgow on this very subject. Their opinion was that the Pendolino would come into it's own on the ECML and be able to stay at higher speeds for longer around the curves on the Northern stretches between Edinburgh and Newcastle assuming TASS was installed.
How much of a difference would this make to the current 4 hour Flying Scotsman service?
 

The Planner

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That is the golden comment though if TASS was installed. Unless someone comes up with a TASS speed profile then you have no idea of what you can gain.
 

sprinterguy

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They don't want anything non 125mph hence why NX canned the 90s idea. Elaine holt also wanted nothing non 125 but also hates 180s with a vengeance hence why no other stock was brought in last year.
I think the problem is the lack of 125 electric locos rather than stock.
GNER I think it was had the idea of reforming the mark 4 sets into 10 carriage rakes and then forming up three rakes of mark 3s to make up the numbers after three mark 4 sets had been disbanded to allow an extra vehicle to be inserted into each of the remaining 27 sets, to work with the existing class 91 fleet, so 125mph would still be achieved and no new electric locos would be required.
 

IanXC

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GNER I think it was had the idea of reforming the mark 4 sets into 10 carriage rakes and then forming up three rakes of mark 3s to make up the numbers after three mark 4 sets had been disbanded to allow an extra vehicle to be inserted into each of the remaining 27 sets, to wor
k with the existing class 91 fleet, so 125mph would still be achieved and no new electric locos would be required.

Are there 30 mark 3s out there to use in such a project though? I guess the pretendolino might come free soon but other than that I think it'd mean waiting for GEMLs or those from the HSTs.

 

LE Greys

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GNER I think it was had the idea of reforming the mark 4 sets into 10 carriage rakes and then forming up three rakes of mark 3s to make up the numbers after three mark 4 sets had been disbanded to allow an extra vehicle to be inserted into each of the remaining 27 sets, to work with the existing class 91 fleet, so 125mph would still be achieved and no new electric locos would be required.

That's what I thought as well. It would make a lot of sense that way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are there 30 mark 3s out there to use in such a project though? I guess the pretendolino might come free soon but other than that I think it'd mean waiting for GEMLs or those from the HSTs.

Well, not any more, but there were then.
 

sprinterguy

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So it would have 2250hp on diesel....... Is that enough to haul the Cl91 to Inverness in a reasonable time?
When the production HSTs were being designed there was apparently a 3000hp power unit that would have fit into the power car bodyshell, but this idea was never taken up as the additional power was not necessary and would have led to higher fuel consumption and there were also concerns over higher axle rates. And of course, the East Coast HST sets were originally meant to be higher rated at 2500hp, hence them being class 254, to cope with the longer eight carriage formations although nowadays they cope perfectly happily with nine carriage formations still with 2250hp per power car.

So with a 3000hp power unit, a single power car would be sufficient to take a train forward over the Highland main line but with the MTU re-engine project only recently completed and the trains so late on in their life it's not really going to be a feasible proposition.
 
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