Pendolino derailment at Greyrigg

[CallySleeper]

Interestingly, the majority of comments on BBC's 'Have Your Say' seem quite positive.

I noticed this too, albeit there were still pockets of "I'm going to stick to my car thankyou very much." Apparently, other than that Bob Crow bloke, the media seem to be somewhat moderated and mature.

I noticed one comment which basically went along the lines of "Branson for PM"

Also, Branson has reported to have said that VWC staff have reviewed 390033 and it may not be a write-off.

 

[Hentis]

Also, Branson has reported to have said that VWC staff have reviewed 390033 and it may not be a write-off.

It would be intresting to see what they will do. Although if they sanction repairs it would possibly be outta action for some time. If its more cost to repair then to build a new one then I would expect branson to order a new one. Also could we see a temp reformation of an 87 and appropiate stock running for the next few months.

Nine Al Alleys lorries on standby and apparently a temporary road has to be built

Cheers

Hentis

 

[voyagerdude220]

The sleeper was sat in platform one with the loco at the platform end, so I don't know if it actually ran. .

I didn't hear anything northbound run through the Ribble Valley during the night. I did however hear a freight train just after midnight, and saw a supermarket (2 5-car 221s) s/b at around 00:40.



Interestingly, the majority of comments on BBC's 'Have Your Say' seem quite positive.[/QUOTE]

O I never thought of looking on the bbc website at it, and am surprised that they're positive- i'll have a look now.

 

[Ascot]

ok don't know if these have been said but i'm in a rush to read 10 pages atm..

If it was a points failure wouldn't the signal not be cleared of interlocking and if it did unlock wouldn't the signal reset, unless it unlocked just after he passed...?

6 coaches? What happened, they leave the 1st class at Euston?

 

[voyagerdude220]

6 coaches? What happened, they leave the 1st class at Euston?

Nah they just removed all of the FC carriages, bar the kitchen carriage, and held a special free Primo catering service on every train, for all customers. :roll:

 

[Tom B]

As others have pointed out, it's nice to see that the majority of public comments are positive.

Also - 2002 to 2007, not bad going since the last incident - excluding obviously the ones outside the control of the railways, such as the level crossings.

 

[voyagerdude220]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/download/managed_files/sunday_25_Feb_XC_plan-20070224140639.htm

The plan for tomorrows trains.

Mojo- How busy was the 08:50 from Euston this morning?

 

[adambro]

I see the BBC have managed to screw the map up!

What am I missing?

 

[Mojo]

Mojo- How busy was the 08:50 from Euston this morning?

Busy - 2 or so people standing in my coach from MK, the last few times I've been on VWC it's been similar - I dread to think what it's like on Sunday evenings.

 

[175001]

Its a tribute to the Pendo that it withstood such force without suffering substantial damage.

My condolences to the family who have lost a member in this incident. My thoughts are with those who are still critical.

I will travel in full confidence on a Pendolino Monday afernoon!

 

[inside_edge]

Hi all.
Richard Branson said that the strength of the Pendo reduced the number of fatalities. Apparently the carriages contain roll bars, rather like a racing car.
Does anyone know if Voyager and Super Voyager carriages are built in the same way as I believe 220s/221s were built earlier than 390s?

 

[175001]

As well as expressing my heartfelt condolences to the families of the people affected in last night's tragic events, I would also like to express my sympathy to the families of the 3 people killed on the A38 near Derby last night, especially as they will be forgotten by the media.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/6392313.stm

And a man was killed on the North Wales Coast line at Llanfairfechan station yesturday afternoon. Its not regarded as a suspicious death though.

It delayed my journey home by 90 mins, but times like that, you don't mind the delay.

 

[Kris]

I think that we can count ourselves as very lucky that there wasn't a bridge abutment nearby. It could have been an instant stop and a crash like the one at Eschede.

Also nice to hear commendations for the driver (although Richard Branson said at one point that he tried to steer out of the way). Another railway expert said "All express train drivers are heroes" . My apologies to those of you who only drive locals or freight - they weren't my words.

Hope the driver is not too serious - we often don't survive these things and in my 19 years I've lost 2 colleauges at Bomo. 1 at Clapham - Johnny Rolls and 1 at Holton Heath - Clive Brooker.

 

[Sprog]

Hi all.
Richard Branson said that the strength of the Pendo reduced the number of fatalities. Apparently the carriages contain roll bars, rather like a racing car.
Does anyone know if Voyager and Super Voyager carriages are built in the same way as I believe 220s/221s were built earlier than 390s?

Yes!

They are all safe and certified.

Do you think in todays Health and Safety overkill socitey that they would be able to run otherwise!!!!!!!!!!???

Please dont go into the General Publics panic mode and start questioning crash durability. 390s, 220s and 221s are all safe to do 125mph and withstand an impact.

Tests and Simulations where done when the classes where built, and today has just shown it in real life.

Thumbs up to the Pendolino and its Builders.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Just to further put the "wow, Pendolinos are so great to stand up to that" into perspective, take a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Colwich-rail-crash.jpg

In this crash there was only one fatality, the driver of one of the trains. The coaches are crumpled but largely intact (most serious damage is to the ends of the coachs, where crumple zones are on modern stock), the mangled wreck in the centre is one of the locos. Middle right, and the middle of the 3 coaches at almost 90deg to the rails (behind the loco) can be seen some of those awfully dangerous Mk1s. They've come of suprisingly well havn't they. The rest of the coaches are a mix of Mk2 and Mk3. The latter is well proven in accidents, and has recieved significant praise, and the former has also shown to stand up well to accidents. The only real thing that seems to have been significant to survivability in this sort of accident is that the windows remained intact. The fact that they are so small on a Pendolino probably was a big factor. Then again, after numerous similar accidents where passengers have been ejected, the issue of strengthening windows comes up (something that could be done on any type of train), but it's seen as too expensive, and also prevents windows from being used for evacuation, although I have to say, this accident puts that into a whole new light (no windows broken, no ejections, no problems evacuating passengers), although oviously fires are still an issue. Of cource, the other thing that inevitably comes up is seatbelts. Overall though, it must be remembered that you're safer travelling in wooden bodied stock at high speeds with very little safety equipment than you are in the safest car (afterall, as has been said, at least 3 people died in a car crash last night, and that was probably a fairly modern car with quite a lot of safety equipment).
Just on a different subject, one thing that made me really mad last night was when watching Sky News and they were interviewing someone from Virgin Trains. The reporter kept asking him if they were planning to withdraw Pendolinos from service, and of cource he was trying to explain that there was nothing so far to suggest the train was at fault, but the reporter wasn't having it. How stupid can you get. I'm sure if anything had or does come up to suggest the train was at fault, appropriate action will be taken straight away, and if that means taking them out of service, then that will be done.

 

[CallySleeper]

Hi all.
Richard Branson said that the strength of the Pendo reduced the number of fatalities. Apparently the carriages contain roll bars, rather like a racing car.
Does anyone know if Voyager and Super Voyager carriages are built in the same way as I believe 220s/221s were built earlier than 390s?

Yes. If you'll recall the Copmanthorpe incident, the front of the train (221136) crumpled up - I don't even think there were that many injuries out of the 70 or 80 onboard.

Having just watched the ITV report, they are saying that the industry's safety record could be reviewed - as this accident occured after there were "it won't happen again" promises after Potters Bar and Hatfield. It is sad that some people anticipate a 100% accident-free safety record.

Also, it is interesting to note that the train (390033), in particular coach 68833 is the same train which derailed at Oxley on the 4th of April last year.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Well, if anyone promised that things like Hatfield and Potters Bar wouldn't happen again they deserve all the criticism they get. Railways, like everything else, are not without dangers, and whilst danger can be managed and reduced, it can't be eliminated. Accidents always happen, afterall, the railways are run and operated by humans, and humans make mistakes. Even automatic and safety systems where humans are not involved with operation, or at least are monitored and over-ridden if they make mistakes, were still designed and built by humans, and are maintained by humans. Also, however great your safety checks etc are, things will still slip though. The problem with accidents is that it's often a tiny little thing that starts of the chain of events, and often the tiny thing is so small it wouldn't be noticed by even thorough checks, but it works up into a catastrophic failure faster than there is the opertunity for further checks that might notice the developing problem. The best thing for everyone is to be straight about the risks, show how they are managed, and show how despite the risks, railways are still very safe. I was pleased that last night someone mentioned how train accidents are so major since they are so rare, since it's very true.

 

[Broken Viking]

Hail All!
As previously, my thoughts are with the deceased, injured and their families at this time. However (Hoping that this isn't considered in bad taste.) I have to say that I am now seeing a much more positive side to this incident.

Like someone above correctly said; You wouldn't fair so well if crashing at this speed on the motorway. Come to think of it, I've seen nasty enough crashes with multiple fatalities occur at 40mph on the roads. For only one fatality to occur in such an incident (Remember that the train probabally derailed at the full 95mph speed limit.) is an astounding feat and testiment to the design of the Pendolino. I would also make a guess that the lady who sadly passed away last night may have been crossing between carriages at the time of the incident, meaning that she could have been between crumple zones and outside the protection of the coach roll-cage when the train derailed.

This incident did sadly result in one fatality, but it could have been worse...MUCH worse. A few people have already posted examples of other accidents to say that "The Pendolino isn't that über strong against other stock", but I do wonder what the death/injury figures would have been if this was an HST or APT incident. I know that the HST/Mark III carriages are pretty tough (Which are tougher, Mark III or Pendolino coaches?) and would probabally afford similar protection to passengers, but APT (Mark IV) carriages on the other hand are formed of longitudal aluminium extrusions, which I'm guessing would have buckled and possibly "tin-foiled" in such an accident...Aye, you heard me right - I just said that Pendolinos might be better than APTs as far as crash safety goes. Until a comparative simulation is run (A good idea, considering that the IC225s used on the ECML are all non-tilting APT-U sets.) we won't know for sure...But after seeing those photos above, I would rather have an accident in a Pendolino than an APT!

I'm hoping that Virgin don't decide to scrap 390033 as I would say that she's "earnt her wings" in staying in one piece and keeping all-bar-one passenger alive. Although it's possible that she might not be usable in passenger carrying service again, she could easily be used as a driver and staff trainer vehicle, maintenance trainer vehicle, staff transportation, and high-speed high-value goods transportation. I'll say this though, if I'm ever waiting for a Pendolino and 390033 turns up, I'd still ride her without a second thought. 8)

Come to think of it, I know that after this incident many people will be staying away from the railways and taking their cars everywhere. However, this incident has actually encouraged me to use rail transport more. Many would call me stupid for saying things like that, but I now know that if my Pendolino hits the dirt at 150mph, then I've got a much better chance of surviving than doing the same in a car or bus at a quarter of the speed. I'm going to London tonight by rail, and I'll be travelling on a 450 and maybe a 158/9 or 444. I imagine that the trains'll be rather quiet and the roads very busy, but when I get on those trains tonight, I know for sure that I'll be the one travelling in the safest way possible!

And after this incident, I'm never going to call a Class 390 a "Pendodildo" ever again.

Farewell...
>> Colin B. <<

 

[devon_metro]

Bravo to the Pendolino, shows excellent safety and should re-assure the public. I notice how the front car of a pendo is now a power car :roll:

 

[richa2002]

What's with the ridiculous use of kilometres in Metroland's post?

 

[CallySleeper]

Metroland is correct, however, some people, notably the ones commenting on the BBC site, don't consider the actual statistics.

Hopefully the aftermath won't be a partial repeat of Potters Bar i.e. nationwide disruption as all the infrastructure is checked under paranoia that faults are more widespread

BBC is now reporting that 6 or 7 hundred sets of points are being checked as a "precaution". A one-off or just the beginning of what is to come? Also, how are they able to identify which sets to inspect?

 

[thefab444]

Bravo to the Pendolino, shows excellent safety and should re-assure the public. I notice how the front car of a pendo is now a power car :roll:

Well... it does have motors dunnit?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Hail All!

I would also make a guess that the lady who sadly passed away last night may have been crossing between carriages at the time of the incident, meaning that she could have been between crumple zones and outside the protection of the coach roll-cage when the train derailed.

I know for sure that I'll be the one travelling in the safest way possible!

When my Mum originally told me about the fact that there's an elderly women who's died, I thought that she could have easily had arthritis (sorry dodgy spelling), and that if she did, her bones could break very easily if she just fell over, let alone be involved in a high-speed crash.

I'm sorry to say this with no dis respect intended what so ever towards the elerly women's family , or everyone else involved, but i think that anyone who is involved in a high-speed 95-mph crash on the adjacent M6 into the central reservation, has a hugely increased chance of dieing in a car, than any, especially Voyagers and Pendolinos which are very modern.

I'll say this though, if I'm ever waiting for a Pendolino and 390033 turns up, I'd still ride her without a second thought. 8)

I think that if 390033 is put back into passenger service, which she could do knowing the crash-worthyness of the Pendo which is currently becoming clear as time goes by, Virgin should perhaps suitably rename her, unless members and VT think that passengers wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot barge pole.

And after this incident, I'm never going to call a Class 390 a "Pendodildo" ever again.

Farewell...
>> Colin B. <<

Well I've allways been a fan of Voyagers and Pendolinos, and aren't just saying it, now that the crash worthyness of the trains are coming known.

I obviously wasn't a fan because of the crash worthyness, as I didn't know about it at the time of the fleets being introduced.

In a way, once again with no dis respect intended, this accident makes me feel safer about travelling on trains, especially Virgin, simply because of the fact the Pendolino didn't split up as much as the HST at ufton nervot, and the fact that there's somehow only a single fatality at the moment.

I hope to God, that the death toll remains the same, and that all people on the train recover from their traumatic experience.


EDIT: Will VT have an emergency timetable inplace, diverting trains via the S&C next week during weekdays, as the estimate for the WCML to re open, is the Monday after the forthcoming one. 5th March

Edit 2: Couldn't Network Rail suspend the S&C engineering works over next weekend, in order to provide one through route from Birmingham/Preston to Carlisle, and Edinburgh over the weekend?

The reason why trains are being replaced by busses between Lancaster, and Lockerbie, and not Carlisle, is because of the scheduled engineering works. (That was asked on a forum somewhere)

 

[87015]

because of the fact the Pendolino didn't split up as much as the HST at ufton nervot,

Will you please stop comparing it to Upton Nervot, its a different kind of incident. That was a collision - which subjects whatever train involved to different forces to a derailment like this.

You might have to suffer a MkIII set in near future as a result though.

If possible, could someone with a better understanding of physics/forces etc than me propose how the leading DMS has 'doubled back' on itself?

 

[Dennis]

....longitudal aluminium extrusions, which I'm guessing would have buckled and possibly "tin-foiled" in such an accident...

Isn't the Pendolino's body, as well as Desiro's, Voyagers and most other modern stock, made from a load bearing aluminium (alloy?)extrusions? The shape is just as important as the ultimate strength of a material in determining how such structures behave on impact.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Will you please stop comparing it to Upton Nervot, its a different kind of incident. That was a collision - which subjects whatever train involved to different forces to a derailment like this.

You might have to suffer a MkIII set in near future as a result though.

I am comparing the incidents, because one involved an HST, and yesterdays involved a Pendolino.

 

[Broken Viking]

Hail All!

In a way, once again with no dis respect intended, this accident makes me feel safer about travelling on trains, especially Virgin, simply because of the fact the Pendolino didn't split up as much as the HST at ufton nervot, and the fact that there's somehow only a single fatality at the moment.

Hear! Hear! 8)
That's what I was trying to imply in my last post...Obviously my bad way with words is showing itself again...

I bet you can guess why my signature has been changed... :notworth:

Farewell...
>> Colin B. <<

 

[CallySleeper]

Comparing this incident to Upton shows the difference in durability between the two trains. That's not saying MkIII stock is unsafe - Upton showed that the stock was up to withstanding high speed crashes without vast loss of life. However, gave us (the public) really the first insight as to how well built these trains actually are. The train sides are strong and well secure, the windows are strengthened - had the sides crumpled then we would have probably seen further fatalities. The driver's life was probably saved by the shear strength of the body of the cab - I read one report commenting on how difficult it is to actually break into the cab or deform it in any way - given that HST cabs are, I heard, made partly of wood.

I trust anything made by Bombardier.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Comparing this incident to Upton shows the difference in durability between the two trains. That's not saying MkIII stock is unsafe - Upton showed that the stock was up to withstanding high speed crashes without vast loss of life. However, gave us (the public) really the first insight as to how well built these trains actually are. The train sides are strong and well secure, the windows are strengthened - had the sides crumpled then we would have probably seen further fatalities. The driver's life was probably saved by the shear strength of the body of the cab - I read one report commenting on how difficult it is to actually break into the cab or deform it in any way - given that HST cabs are, I heard, made partly of wood.

I trust anything made by Bombardier.

Thanks for backing my opinion/argument up

 

[Coxster]

I trust anything made by Bombardier.

Bearing in mind Pendos are Alstom.