Pendolino 11 cars

[plastictaffy]

Some Scotland trains are absolutely packed, particularly Edinburgh (via Birmingham).
Sunday evening is particularly busy (all routes).

No surprise there, it stops literally everybloodywhere!!

 

[najaB]

The marginal cost of a couple of extra carriages for each nine car is probably not that marginal to Virgin I assume that they would pay extra to Network Rail every time they ran with eleven rather than nine carriages.

Assuming that both of the 'extra' carriages are motor vehicles, the difference would be £224 for a London - Glasgow journey.

 

[All Line Rover]

I do admire Virgin by converting one of its first class on the 9 coach to standard.

The cost of the conversion was many millions. This money would have been better spent on acquiring additional carriages.

As others have mentioned, one doesn't get the impression that Virgin wanted to convert Coach G.
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Assuming that both of the 'extra' carriages are motor vehicles, the difference would be £224 for a London - Glasgow journey.

In other words, one first class single to Warrington. When Coach G (wholly unreserved, so Advance fares are irrelevant) accommodates up to 46.

 

[cool110]

Assuming that both of the 'extra' carriages are motor vehicles, the difference would be £224 for a London - Glasgow journey.

No, it's 1 motor, 1 trailer (assuming it'll be the same as existing 11 cars).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Presumably that comment is meant to mean not all Pendolinos have 60% loadings. Really? I'd never have guessed. Friday evening/Sunday afternoon has been the busiest time on the InterCity network for decades. You can't spend vast sums of money just for a few hours per week when a lot of the people travelling don't even pay that much for their ticket.

An average of 60% (if that figure is correct and based on no. of seats) seems to me quite high. Bear in mind:

• It's unlikely that any train will be evenly loaded: I would guess that usually, 1st class will be loaded less than standard. And within standard class, some coaches will be loaded more than others because it's quite difficult to walk along the train with lugguage to see if a different carriage is less busy. This means that quite a few people will be standing some way before 100% of seats are occupied.
• Some trains will experience varying loads throughout their route. As an example, London-Scotland trains often tend to become much more empty north of Preston/Lancaster. But it's not really practical to split/shorten trains to account for that.
• In some cases you'll need to run a lightly used service to get the train in the right place to run a much more heavily used return service.

All those factors imply to me that you should be looking at more/longer trains long before average loadings get near 100%.

 

[Elecman]

Just as a matter of interest why were the 2 new carriages delivered as 1 trailer and 1 as a complete power car with Panto well or was that a ploy to make the never ordered 6 car baby Pendos cheaper as they would already have the necessary Panto power cars available?

 

[najaB]

No, it's 1 motor, 1 trailer (assuming it'll be the same as existing 11 cars).

So £165 extra in track access charges for an 11 coach as opposed to 9 coach train.
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Just as a matter of interest why were the 2 new carriages delivered as 1 trailer and 1 as a complete power car with Panto well or was that a ploy to make the never ordered 6 car baby Pendos cheaper as they would already have the necessary Panto power cars available?

I could be wrong, but any 'baby Pendolio' would be a different body shell so I don't think that was the reason. My guess would be that since they were getting the last ever carriages of that design they wanted to get the 'tricky' one so that in the event that a panto car was ever written off you wouldn't end up with a orphan unit.

 

[driver_m]

Very easy for people on here to look at some trains that aren't full and say, no they don't need lengthening, but you're I've got to bear in mind the diagrams which mean a 9 will invariably end up on a busy service at some point. First train can leave from the north fairly quietly as a 9 car. But by the time MK is being left behind, the service is overloaded. You can get 4 or 5 very busy trains leaving Liverpool or Manchester for instance in succession, however if two of the evening arrivals were 9 car sets then tomorrow will bring problems. Thus giving the train planners headaches on how best to allocate stock. Also bear in mind sets have to finish at a certain depot for particular maintenance. Sure an afternoon train MAY be quiet, but it doesn't mean the next one won't be.

 

[Prestige15]

HS2 should then be just around the corner then. I don't know how much spare capacity there is across London Midlands, Chiltern and Virgin. Is it eight trains an hour?


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9 trains an hour out of Euston at a typical off-peak

xx00 - Manchester
xx03 - Birmingham
xx07 - Liverpool
xx10 - Chester/N.Wales
xx20 - Manchester
xx23 - Birmingham
xx30 - Scotland
xx40 - Manchester via Crewe
xx43 - Scotland via Birmingham

 

[Kite159]

An average of 60% (if that figure is correct and based on no. of seats) seems to me quite high. Bear in mind:

• It's unlikely that any train will be evenly loaded: I would guess that usually, 1st class will be loaded less than standard. And within standard class, some coaches will be loaded more than others because it's quite difficult to walk along the train with lugguage to see if a different carriage is less busy. This means that quite a few people will be standing some way before 100% of seats are occupied.
• Some trains will experience varying loads throughout their route. As an example, London-Scotland trains often tend to become much more empty north of Preston/Lancaster. But it's not really practical to split/shorten trains to account for that.
• In some cases you'll need to run a lightly used service to get the train in the right place to run a much more heavily used return service.

All those factors imply to me that you should be looking at more/longer trains long before average loadings get near 100%.

I can't remember who originally said it but there are three classes on virgin trains

First Class, Standard Class and Reserved Class, where all the seat reservations are put together. So one coach can be busy when another is empty due to passengers mind set of having to sit in their assigned seat

 

[driver_m]

I can't remember who originally said it but there are three classes on virgin trains

First Class, Standard Class and Reserved Class, where all the seat reservations are put together. So one coach can be busy when another is empty due to passengers mind set of having to sit in their assigned seat

That's not three classes. No such thing as reserved class. You'd therefore have another for reserved first class, and the traveller club in first class. No reason to stop someone with a standard ticket sitting in a reserved seat if the reservee doesn't turn up.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Presumably that comment is meant to mean not all Pendolinos have 60% loadings. Really? I'd never have guessed. Friday evening/Sunday afternoon has been the busiest time on the InterCity network for decades. You can't spend vast sums of money just for a few hours per week when a lot of the people travelling don't even pay that much for their ticket.

That's what they do for London commuters.
I think you'll find the main commuter routes are no more than 50% utilised (on average).
Half the stock sits in sidings off-peak, while Virgin's run intensively all day.
And the commuters have heavily discounted season tickets...

 

[Kite159]

That's not three classes. No such thing as reserved class. You'd therefore have another for reserved first class, and the traveller club in first class. No reason to stop someone with a standard ticket sitting in a reserved seat if the reservee doesn't turn up.

It was a joke at how some TOCs will load all seat reservations in one coach meaning that coach will be busy and the next coach down will be quieter.

Especially as the seat reservation system on the 390s is rubbish compared to the voyagers which tell passengers when that seat is reserved from/to

 

[NotATrainspott]

So £165 extra in track access charges for an 11 coach as opposed to 9 coach train.
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I could be wrong, but any 'baby Pendolio' would be a different body shell so I don't think that was the reason. My guess would be that since they were getting the last ever carriages of that design they wanted to get the 'tricky' one so that in the event that a panto car was ever written off you wouldn't end up with a orphan unit.

No, it was because an additional transformer was needed. The other transformers are on the pantograph vehicles, and rather than design a new carriage type from scratch they just delivered pantograph vehicles without the pantograph.

The hypothetical mini-Pendolino set is supposedly not that different to the current design, with one of the most noticeable differences being that the coupler is exposed Voyager-style rather than covered with the retractable flap. Most of the crash safety changes are to do with the cab, as the most likely collisions are now train-versus-obstacle (e.g. fallen trees or at level crossings) rather than train-versus-train. There's not a lot of scope to make radical changes to the Pendolino body design, and there would need to be a lot of improvement in specific components (e.g. traction package) to justify having a separate maintenance setup. Extending the 9-car sets to 11-car should be easy under those circumstances.

 

[Ianno87]

The cost of the conversion was many millions. This money would have been better spent on acquiring additional carriages.

And the further extra carriages would have an ongoing operating and maintence cost over many years running to many many many many more millions of pounds than the cost of a reconfiguration.

 

[47271]

I make a beeline for Coach G whenever I'm on an 11 car Pendolino and it's very rarely even a quarter full. I went all the way from Euston to Glasgow a couple of months ago on a service where they were making repeated announcements apologising for overcrowding. Meanwhile I had a table of four seats all to myself in G. Pretty much every seat was occupied in H and J, so it wasn't like there was no demand for First Class.

Very nice for me and everyone else in the know, but it seems to be a terrible waste of resources when the rest of the train is rammed. Someone needs to work out the annual cost per actual passenger carried in Coach G, it must be pretty high.

That said I've seen them all rammed in A-F in Standard and about six people in U, so like others have said, it seems that 98% of the travelling public prefer to stick strictly with their reserved seat.

 

[Prestige15]

It was a joke at how some TOCs will load all seat reservations in one coach meaning that coach will be busy and the next coach down will be quieter.

Especially as the seat reservation system on the 390s is rubbish compared to the voyagers which tell passengers when that seat is reserved from/to

It only shows two words, Reserved or Available.

I once traveled from Conventry to Warrington and i sat on a seat which showing reserved knowing i would get kicked off so i didnt got too comfortable all the way to Warrington and the entire journey time i got there nobody came up to me and claimed their seat despite the coach was a third full. There useless. Mind you Some people don't even use their reserved seats.

 

[SephenWorceste]

9 trains an hour out of Euston at a typical off-peak



xx00 - Manchester

xx03 - Birmingham

xx07 - Liverpool

xx10 - Chester/N.Wales

xx20 - Manchester

xx23 - Birmingham

xx30 - Scotland

xx40 - Manchester via Crewe

xx43 - Scotland via Birmingham

I really only ever use the Birmingham trains. A mixture of nine and eleven car Pendalino or sometimes a double Voyager. I had a bit of luck last week. I was in standard and needed to make a quick exit at Euston. The train was in reverse order.

Thank you, Stephen.

 

[390gizzard]

It only shows two words, Reserved or Available.

I once traveled from Conventry to Warrington and i sat on a seat which showing reserved knowing i would get kicked off so i didnt got too comfortable all the way to Warrington and the entire journey time i got there nobody came up to me and claimed their seat despite the coach was a third full. There useless. Mind you Some people don't even use their reserved seats.

The 390 Seat reservation displays either Available, Reserved or Reserved From .....
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The 390 Seat reservation displays either Available, Reserved or Reserved From .....

And of course, Traveller Club, Special Assist and even Bicycle !

 

[route101]

The 390 Seat reservation displays either Available, Reserved or Reserved From .....
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And of course, Traveller Club, Special Assist and even Bicycle !

Im sure i had my name on the screen before , could be wrong !

 

[Bletchleyite]

It can show Available Until X too.


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[najaB]

Im sure i had my name on the screen before , could be wrong !

Yes, it does happen. I've had it plenty of times.

 

[Nym]

9 trains an hour out of Euston at a typical off-peak

xx00 - Manchester
xx03 - Birmingham
xx07 - Liverpool
xx10 - Chester/N.Wales
xx20 - Manchester
xx23 - Birmingham
xx30 - Scotland
xx40 - Manchester via Crewe
xx43 - Scotland via Birmingham

If you're doing Euston off peak though it would be;

xx00 Manchester
xx03 Birminham
xx04 Tring
xx07 Liverpool
xx10 Chester / N Wales
xx13 Birmingham via Northampton
xx17 Watford Junction
xx20 Manchester
xx23 Birmingham
xx24 Milton Keynes Central
xx30 Glasgow Central
xx34 Tring
xx37 Watford Junction
xx40 Manchester
xx43 Scotland via Birmingham
xx46 Crewe
xx49 Birmingham New Street via Northampton
xx54 Northampton
xx57 Watford Junction

I make that 19tph...

 

[causton]

Yes, it does happen. I've had it plenty of times.

Name is usually only from a ticket office, telesales etc. If you know of a website that puts your name on the reservations let me know as I love when it happens! Of course, being a ticket office clerk, I can arrange for my name to appear on reservations myself if I ask my colleagues to put my name on for me when booking my seats

 

[najaB]

If you know of a website that puts your name on the reservations let me know as I love when it happens

The Trainline.

 

[Kite159]

It only shows two words, Reserved or Available.

I once traveled from Conventry to Warrington and i sat on a seat which showing reserved knowing i would get kicked off so i didnt got too comfortable all the way to Warrington and the entire journey time i got there nobody came up to me and claimed their seat despite the coach was a third full. There useless. Mind you Some people don't even use their reserved seats.

Where on a voyager the seat would have said for example "reserved from Euston to Crewe", you boarding at Coventry a quick check would have told you that you could relax until at least Crewe before the chance of being asked to move by someone who had that seat from Crewe to say Preston.

Allows for better judgement if travelling without a reservation or your assigned seat is one which gives an excellent view of plastic

 

[The Planner]

I make that 19tph...

Yes, but only 9 of them are Virgins and Pendo/Voyagers.

 

[390gizzard]

Available until has been removed, in favour of Reserved From......

 

[Prestige15]

I was referring Virgin Trains 9 trains per hour

 

[CosherB]

Just curious and not too sure if this has been discussed before as I've not been on here that long and couldn't be bothered to search for it.

Please be bothered to search - there is a huge archive of informative and interesting details on this forum. We don't want a load of new threads that simply rake over old ground that has been covered before (sometimes quite extensively in the past). Thanks!

Just keep away from 442 and 321 threads!