Penalty

[Oll]

Hi there, recently I got a train from Heaton Chapel station to Manchester Piccadilly which costs £3.80, I accidentally had a railcard on whilst I was searching because I was checking ticket prices to Edinburgh the day before (this took the price down to £2.50). I bought my ticket and didn’t have a railcard and now I’m being fined £90. Is there any way I can get out of this as it was an honest mistake? Thanks

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Welcome to the forum!

Unfortunately, seems that you didn't have a valid ticket (as a railcard discount was claimed, but no railcard was actually held).

Reckon that you're best advised to pay the amount now demanded, and that should be the end of it. If you don't pay and the matter goes to court, you're unlikely to win
and it'll almost certainly end up being more costly for you.

Learn from the experience and move on.

P.S. It's not a "fine" although it might seem like one. Only a court can impose a fine. You've almost certainly been charged with what Northern refer to as a £90 "fixed penalty".

 

[Oll]

Welcome to the forum!

Unfortunately, seems that you didn't have a valid ticket (as a railcard discount was claimed, but no railcard was actually held).

Reckon that you're best advised to pay the amount now demanded, and that should be the end of it. If you don't pay and the matter goes to court, you're unlikely to win
and it'll almost certainly end up being more costly for you.

Learn from the experience and move on.

P.S. It's not a "fine" although it might seem like one. Only a court can impose a fine. You've almost certainly been charged with what Northern refer to as a £90 "fixed penalty".

Okay Thankyou, and what is it if it’s not a fine? There’s no way it could’ve cost them this much to send a few letters? Thanks again

 

[Fawkes Cat]

P.S. It's not a "fine" although it might seem like one. Only a court can impose a fine. You've almost certainly been charged with what Northern refer to as a £90 "fixed penalty".

And in case you’re wondering - this can make a difference if an employer or insurance company or whatever asks if you have any convictions. A ‘fixed penalty’ from the railway isn’t a conviction: pleading or being found guilty in court is.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Okay Thankyou, and what is it if it’s not a fine? There’s no way it could’ve cost them this much to send a few letters? Thanks again

It's a so called "fixed penalty" and £90 is what Northern tend to charge.

You may still also have to pay the unpaid fare due.

The further advice posted above by @Fawkes Cat, just now, is also pertinent.

 

[6Gman]

Okay Thankyou, and what is it if it’s not a fine? There’s no way it could’ve cost them this much to send a few letters? Thanks again

It's an offer from the company to settle without it being taken further.

You don't have to accept it, in which case they'll probably go for a prosecution. Which will end up as a fine, costs etc. which will probably be in excess of £90.

And the company's costs are more than sending a few letters.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Okay Thankyou, and what is it if it’s not a fine? There’s no way it could’ve cost them this much to send a few letters? Thanks again

The £90 is, of course, a round sum rather than to the penny how much it has cost the railway to deal with this matter. But think about how much it costs to employ someone: if someone is paid £25,000 a year, and they work 50 weeks at 40 hours a week (2,000 hours per year) then that means that they cost £12.50 an hour - and actually they will cost quite a lot more after providing them an office to work in and a desk to work at and a computer to use. Bit at £12.50 an hour, that means someone spending about a day dealing with your case.

£90 isn’t a bargain, but it’s not far off what the railway will have spent.

 

[robbeech]

The view of the railway :

Why were you checking tickets to Edinburgh with a railcard if you don’t have a railcard? Sounds like you were planning on going to Edinburgh on a railcard ticket without a railcard to me.

Real reason (perhaps) :

You were looking how much you could save with a railcard and working out whether it is worth buying one for your trip to Edinburgh.

Result : they don’t care, you did it wrong and they want paying for it.

I’m afraid you really would be better off paying up.

 

[Oll]

And in case you’re wondering - this can make a difference if an employer or insurance company or whatever asks if you have any convictions. A ‘fixed penalty’ from the railway isn’t a conviction: pleading or being found guilty in court is.

Okay that’s very helpful Thankyou very much.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The view of the railway :

Why were you checking tickets to Edinburgh with a railcard if you don’t have a railcard? Sounds like you were planning on going to Edinburgh on a railcard ticket without a railcard to me.

Real reason (perhaps) :

You were looking how much you could save with a railcard and working out whether it is worth buying one for your trip to Edinburgh.

Result : they don’t care, you did it wrong and they want paying for it.

I’m afraid you really would be better off paying up.

Exactly this. Except now the passenger is much more likely to not go to Edinburgh by train at all! The railways always take the narrow short-term view.

 

[Oll]

Exactly this. Except now the passenger is much more likely to not go to Edinburgh by train at all! The railways always take the narrow short-term view.

You were right, I now have a railcard which I bought the same week. And I think they can check your travel history to see what you’ve bought with a railcard and what you haven’t. I’ve traveled many times and never said I had a railcard. Thankyou for the help!

 

[Deafdoggie]

Okay Thankyou, and what is it if it’s not a fine? There’s no way it could’ve cost them this much to send a few letters? Thanks again

People on here like to be pedantic (not necessarily a bad thing) Strictly speaking a fine can only be imposed after a conviction, therefore only a court can fine you as only they can convict you.
However, the word "fine" (in this context) is generally used to mean a punishment, and several dictionaries even define it as that. So I think it's slowly evolving. The word "Mortgage" has a very specific meaning in law, but most people (and lenders!) use it to mean the money borrowed to buy a house, "fine" is moving the same way. It has a specific meaning in law, but is widely used in a more general meaning, and I'd be surprised if noone knew what you meant by it.

 

[furlong]

It's a so called "fixed penalty" and £90 is what Northern tend to charge.

And "Fixed Penalty" is another term like that - it has a defined meaning which does not cover this. Search this forum for old discussions of "Penalty Fakes".

The only thing I can think of is if the app/website did not make it sufficiently clear that you were purchasing a discounted ticket and had to be in possession of the railcard to confirm the purchase. You'd need to repeat what you did (record a video) and think how this happened and judge if you think someone watching would agree with that or not. If it was the case that it wasn't clear enough, you could try to make that argument to persuade them to back down, or after paying them, for the app/website provider to refund you, or eventually try the Rail Ombudsman. In general people suggest paying what's asked so the risk of prosecution falls away and then making attempts to recover it if you think you have an argument that might persuade any of them. In the old days you could write a letter with two cheques, one for the unpaid fare and the other for the extra money they want and try to persuade them in the letter not to cash the second cheque.

 

[gray1404]

Where you a Railcard holder at the time you made your journey or did you buy the Railcard later on.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Were you a Railcard holder at the time you made your journey or did you buy the Railcard later on.

Post #1 seems to suggest that the OP didn't have a railcard at the time of the incident.

Post #11 seems to suggest that a railcard has subsequently been obtained by the OP, later the same week.

No doubt @Oll will be able to confirm this understanding.