Penalty Notice

[beekeeper]

I was issued a penalty notice today for buying a ticket when I arrived at the station.
The ticket was scanned & the guy said I had just bought the ticket so it wasn’t valid. I’ll admit I argued my case a little bit. I was frustrated.

He told me to appeal & tell them everything I had just said.
I have paid the fine, however the guy who issued it asked for my driving licence & I was asked to sign.
Because my details have been taken can I expect this to be taken further?

 

[John R]

Based on what you have said it sounds like you were given a Penalty Fare, in which case as you paid, there is no further action they can take in respect of that offence. However, as they now have your details you need to be sure you have the correct ticket for your journey before you set foot in a train in future, as you will be on their records, and any future offence is more likely to lead to a potential for prosecution.

Also, they might investigate your account for other suspicious tickets (eg “short fares” purchased to get through a gateline), and contact you about those if they think you have been travelling fraudulently. Whether they could do anything is a moot point, as they would have to prove that you were the person who actually travelled with the ticket.

We would need more details about your actual journey, ticket bought, where you were stopped, which company issued the penalty etc to be more specific though.

 

[beekeeper]

Thank you for the response. I’m really stressing about this.
Yes it was a penalty fare that was issued.

I was a bit stressed, I have no idea what I signed, it was on his machine. Can anyone advise on this?

 

[Titfield]

When you say that you bought the ticket at the station I presume you mean that you bought the ticket at your destination (ie on arrival) ?

This sounds like (and I stand to be corrected) that you only bought the ticket when you realised that tickets were being checked at the arrival station?

 

[najaB]

Yes it was a penalty fare that was issued. It was £50 plus £5.70 fare.

If it was a penalty fare then, once it's paid, the matter is closed.

As noted above though, should you come to their attention again they might be more inclined to prosecute.

 

[Hadders]

No further action can be taken in respect of the ticketing issue.

I’ll admit I argued my case a little bit. I was frustrated.

It's possible that the train company might want to pursue this, depending on exactly what happened.

 

[beekeeper]

No further action can be taken in respect of the ticketing issue.


It's possible that the train company might want to pursue this, depending on exactly what happened

Are you able to advise what it was they would have made me sign?
Would they have taken down notes or evidence?
I did ask what would happen next. He said appeal or pay the fine within 21 days.

 

[gray1404]

Can you please upload a copy of the penalty fare notice you were given at the time along with your receipt if you paid it there and then - with any personal details retracted.

Please also provide details of the journey made and also the reason why you didn't purchase a ticket before travel.

Additionally what ticket did you purchase before the notice was issued to you.

 

[beekeeper]

I paid the penalty online.

Honestly I was in a rush, the train I was going to get was delayed. I went for the earlier one. I purchased a return ticket when I arrived.
I obviously now understand that none of that is relevant & as per the rules they state I did not have a valid ticket.
I also didn’t realise the seriousness of the situation.

 

[gray1404]

If the return ticket was purchased before the issue of the penalty fare and you presented that ticket to the inspector then you can appeal on the basis you presented a valid ticket and the penalty fare has therefore not been issued in accordance with the regulations.

 

[beekeeper]

If the return ticket was purchased before the issue of the penalty fare and you presented that ticket to the inspector then you can appeal on the basis you presented a valid ticket and the penalty fare has therefore not been issued in accordance with the regulations.

The issue is the outgoing ticket was purchased after the outgoing journey. It was an open ticket but I selected the next train which he advised also invalidates the ticket.

 

[najaB]

If the return ticket was purchased before the issue of the penalty fare and you presented that ticket to the inspector then you can appeal on the basis you presented a valid ticket and the penalty fare has therefore not been issued in accordance with the regulations.

Can you appeal a penalty fare after it's been paid?

 

[gray1404]

The issue is the outgoing ticket was purchased after the outgoing journey. It was an open ticket but I selected the next train which he advised also invalidates the ticket.

That does not mean you were given correct information by him. I refer you back to my previous post.

If the return ticket was purchased before the issue of the penalty fare and you presented that ticket to the inspector then you can appeal on the basis you presented a valid ticket and the penalty fare has therefore not been issued in accordance with the regulations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2024 ==

Can you appeal a penalty fare after it's been paid?

Yes, an appeal can be lodged after a PF has been paid and will be refunded if the appeal is successful.

 

[John R]

The issue is the outgoing ticket was purchased after the outgoing journey. It was an open ticket but I selected the next train which he advised also invalidates the ticket.

If the ticket was an Anytime or Off peak one then selecting a different train doesn’t invalidate the ticket. If it was an Advance ticket then it does.

However, the problem is that not only did you not buy a ticket before boarding (which creates the offence) but you failed to buy one for the next 20 minutes or so, which would suggest that there was an intent not to pay for your journey at all if possible.

I agree with @gray1404’s comment that the Penalty Fare appears to be incorrectly filled out, but if there was any intent to defraud the railway then you might decide to let sleeping dogs lie and take the £50 hit rather than reopening a dialogue with WMR.

 

[Watershed]

Can you appeal a penalty fare after it's been paid?

Yes.

 

[najaB]

Yes, an appeal can be lodged after a PF has been paid and will be refunded if the appeal is successful.

And also @Watershed, thanks. Only the OP would know if it's worth poking the bear in this instance given that the matter is currently resolved.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If the ticket was an Anytime or Off peak one then selecting a different train doesn’t invalidate the ticket. If it was an Advance ticket then it does.

Photo of the Penalty Fare (which has since been removed - IIRC it was previously in post #9) was for a journey from Tile Hill to Birmingham New Street, and was issued at Birmingham New Street. Don't believe that advance singles are available between these stations.

 

[gray1404]

If this is a strict one off incident then appeal on the basis it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations as a valid ticket was produced at the time of inspection.

 

[JustAMinute]

If this is a strict one off incident then appeal on the basis it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations as a valid ticket was produced at the time of inspection.

Out of curiosity why was it valid as you say if they didnt have one before they arrived?
But others here say it wasnt valid, sounds confusing!

 

[najaB]

Out of curiosity why was it valid as you say if they didnt have one before they arrived?

Are you asking because you find yourself in a similar situation? If so, please start a new thread and provide the information requested in this post: Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Apologies if I'm making an unwarranted assumption, but it's unusual to see someone's first post be to an existing thread in the Disputes section unless they've found themselves in some bother.

 

[30907]

Out of curiosity why was it valid as you say if they didnt have one before they arrived?
But others here say it wasnt valid, sounds confusing!

The argument is that once the ticket has been bought it is valid for travel, and the correct procedure would have been to report the traveller for prosecution under the Railway Byelaws for boarding without a ticket or even the Regulation of Railways Act for intending to evade the fare.
(At the very least, that would result in a rather greater cost to the traveller, but that is another matter.)

 

[JustAMinute]

Thanl you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2024 ==

Are you asking because you find yourself in a similar situation? If so, please start a new thread and provide the information requested in this post: Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Apologies if I'm making an unwarranted assumption, but it's unusual to see someone's first post be to an existing thread in the Disputes section unless they've found themselves in some bother.

No, genuinely was just asking out or curiosity based on the responses to the thread.