Penalty Notice Question

[Honey84]

Hello all,

Just wanted to ask some advice about a penalty notice I was recently issued with.

A couple of weeks ago I travelled from Eltham to Charing Cross. I have an Oyster Card registered in my name with a Zone 1 - 3 Rail Card and about £5 additional top up (at that time). Eltham is Zone 4.

I touched in at Eltham and travelled to Charing Cross. Unfortunately, it seems I lost my Oyster Card between Eltham and Charing Cross.

When I got to Charing Cross, I went to the Fares to Pay counter and spoke to a RPI. I explained the situation and told him I could prove that I touched in at Eltham because the Oyster is registered.

He told me he had to issue a Penalty Fare, but if I write to the Appeals address containing the proof that I had had a valid ticket at the start of travel they would allow the appeal and I wouldn't have to pay the £20.

I subsequently wrote, attaching my Oyster History which confirmed the above.

I have just got this response:

I note from your appeal that the season ticket held for this journey was unavailable for inspection on this date
because it had been lost. In accordance with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, the safekeeping of a ticket
is the passenger’s responsibility. With the exception of weekly season tickets, train companies will consider
applications for duplicate season tickets to replace those that have been lost or stolen (there may be a fee for
this service). In the interim, passengers are required to buy daily tickets before travelling, the cost of which may
be reclaimed through the booking office once the replacement season ticket has been issued. Since there is no
evidence provided to confirm that a replacement season ticket was subsequently issued, it has been concluded
that the penalty fare notice was correctly served.
With that in mind, I regret to advise that your appeal has been unsuccessful. Attached is a statement provided by
RPSS. An amount of £20.00 is currently outstanding and should be paid immediately to avoid further action or
charges.

I don't really understand it. I got the season ticket transferred to another Oyster the next day and can obviously prove that - is that what they want?

It is only £20 and obviously I accept that I didn't have a ticket. Just a bit annoyed that I am receiving different messages from different people.

Do I just have to suck it up and pay the £20?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Tibbs]

Yes, sadly you do. Byelaw 18 (the byelaw you contravened) is absurdly draconian in this regard. Even if you'd had your bag snatched (with the Oyster inside), they could prosecute you for the offence.

The staff on the ground will often overstate the likelihood of your getting a refund on a penalty fare, as it increases the likelihood of you accepting the PF, and by the time you find out, it's someone else's problem.

 

[najaB]

It is only £20 and obviously I accept that I didn't have a ticket. Just a bit annoyed that I am receiving different messages from different people.

Do I just have to suck it up and pay the £20?

Yes. Pay the PF now to avoid further charges adding up.

After you've paid, appeal again and provide proof that you held the season ticket and it's been transferred to a new Oyster card. Don't, however, expect a second appeal to be any more effective than the original one.

 

[trentside]

The staff on the ground will often overstate the likelihood of your getting a refund on a penalty fare, as it increases the likelihood of you accepting the PF, and by the time you find out, it's someone else's problem.

We're told not to state what the likely outcome of an appeal will be - just to simply state the process through which a passenger can appeal. Unfortunately, it's an easy trap to fall into to over-state the likelihood of a successful outcome in order to diffuse a difficult situation.

To Honey84 - Pay the penalty fare as soon as possible, and don't let the matter escalate. I'm sure that's not what you were hoping to hear, but I that's the best advice I think we can give in these circumstances.

 

[MikeWh]

I don't really understand it. I got the season ticket transferred to another Oyster the next day and can obviously prove that - is that what they want?

It might be. If you simply presented proof that you'd touched in at Eltham but not that you'd had the travelcard switched over to a new card then it would seem to suggest the gist of their letter. If you now send them proof that the travelcard has been switched to a new Oyster then they may accept the appeal.

However, at this stage I cannot stress enough the advice to pay the penalty. I would enclose a cheque with your subsequent appeal letter and invite them to only present the cheque if they still maintain that the penalty fare was appropriate. It may not work, and doesn't preclude further appeals, but does ensure that the charges won't escalate.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I see some confusion in the minds of some of the replies to this request.

I do agree with others that you should pay the Penalty as soon as possible, to avoid the matter escalating.

However, it may be beneficial if, in addition to paying, you are able to respond again, this time providing evidence that the 'Season Ticket' had been transferred to a replacement Oyster Card and that continuity of validity can be demonstrated, asking for the Appeal to be reconsidered in the light of these facts.
I'll take a guess and suggest that you may have a 60% chance of success in a refund of the £20 if you provide persuasive evdence - but perhaps you won't consider that to be a good enough return on your time and effort.

I cannot agree that the Railway Byelaws are relevant to your request, nor can I agree with the argument that you are facing 'absurdly draconian' laws which are likely to be used to prosecute you. The Penalty Fare scheme is a comparatively light-touch procedure for dealing with ticketless travel without going anywhere near the Courts. I'm not aware of any passenger having their bag stolen containing an Oyster card to whom a Prosecutor, on being given details of the incident, has subsequently requested a Court to issue a Summons.

 

[Flamingo]

Just to mention (not to say for a moment that this is the case with the OP), the "I've just had my bag/purse/wallet stolen" is one of the most common excuses of regular fare-dodgers. I can give numerous examples of repeat offenders giving the same story to me on separate occasions - the more blatant coming to find me (after boarding) to say somebody had just stolen their bag at the last stop (but being strangely reluctant for me to ring BTP to report it)...

 

[Honey84]

Thanks for your thoughts all, will pay the penalty fare.

I can completely see why they cannot waive penalty fares for all suggestions of lost tickets. What irks me is that I can prove I had a valid ticket to start with (which wouldn't be the case if it was a paper ticket).

Never mind. I am a journalist - I can have my revenge in another way!

 

[bb21]

Never mind. I am a journalist - I can have my revenge in another way!

I hope you are not going to write about this incident as that probably won't go down well.

But I am sure if you hang around here long enough you will find plenty of material.

 

[Tibbs]

I see some confusion in the minds of some of the replies to this request.

I do agree with others that you should pay the Penalty as soon as possible, to avoid the matter escalating.

However, it may be beneficial if, in addition to paying, you are able to respond again, this time providing evidence that the 'Season Ticket' had been transferred to a replacement Oyster Card and that continuity of validity can be demonstrated, asking for the Appeal to be reconsidered in the light of these facts.
I'll take a guess and suggest that you may have a 60% chance of success in a refund of the £20 if you provide persuasive evdence - but perhaps you won't consider that to be a good enough return on your time and effort.

I cannot agree that the Railway Byelaws are relevant to your request, nor can I agree with the argument that you are facing 'absurdly draconian' laws which are likely to be used to prosecute you. The Penalty Fare scheme is a comparatively light-touch procedure for dealing with ticketless travel without going anywhere near the Courts. I'm not aware of any passenger having their bag stolen containing an Oyster card to whom a Prosecutor, on being given details of the incident, has subsequently requested a Court to issue a Summons.

I didn't say they would, I said thay could.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Just to mention (not to say for a moment that this is the case with the OP), the "I've just had my bag/purse/wallet stolen" is one of the most common excuses of regular fare-dodgers. I can give numerous examples of repeat offenders giving the same story to me on separate occasions - the more blatant coming to find me (after boarding) to say somebody had just stolen their bag at the last stop (but being strangely reluctant for me to ring BTP to report it)...

+1...It's amazing how many people "magically" find money to buy a ticket when they realise you're not going to let them travel for free in such situations. :roll:

 

[trentside]

Thanks for your thoughts all, will pay the penalty fare.

I can completely see why they cannot waive penalty fares for all suggestions of lost tickets. What irks me is that I can prove I had a valid ticket to start with (which wouldn't be the case if it was a paper ticket).

Never mind. I am a journalist - I can have my revenge in another way!

No doubt embellished with lots of detail about the nasty railway jobsworths.

You admit you can understand why penalty cannot normally be waived in these circumstances and at the end of the day, you're the one who lost the ticket and therefore had nothing to present. If you do decide to "have your revenge" then please provide is with a link, as I'm sure we can offer some interesting input.

 

[Honey84]

No doubt embellished with lots of detail about the nasty railway jobsworths.

You admit you can understand why penalty cannot normally be waived in these circumstances and at the end of the day, you're the one who lost the ticket and therefore had nothing to present. If you do decide to "have your revenge" then please provide is with a link, as I'm sure we can offer some interesting input.

You may need to read what I said a little more carefully. My point is that I could prove that I did start my journey with a valid ticket registered to my name.

You used the word "railway jobsworths" not me. You may hold that view, I do not.

Again thank you for all those who have been helpful.

 

[Class377]

The byelaws don't care that you can prove you started the journey with a valid ticket, they care that you are able to hand the ticket over to railway staff.

If you didn't do that, you broke the byelaws. Simple as that.

 

[Fare-Cop]

The byelaws don't care that you can prove you started the journey with a valid ticket, they care that you are able to hand the ticket over to railway staff.

If you didn't do that, you broke the byelaws. Simple as that.

For avoidance of doubt this is a strict liability requirement where pre-purchase facilities existed at the station at which the traveller joined the service:

National Railway Byelaws (2005)

18 (2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

Perhaps a prosecutor might be persuaded not to proceed if there is evidence that a valid ticket was held at the time of travel, but this would not be the case if purchase or validation of any ticket took place after being reported.