Penalty Notice query

[blake999]

Hi, I wonder is anyone can give me some guidance.

My daughter purchased rail tickets on her mobile phone app for herself, her 18 & 11yr old son's, my other daughter and her 2 children aged 12 & 14.

She did not reaslise that the return time was not negotiable and due to shopping with children ended up coming back on a later train.

On their return journey the inspector checked and declared that they had all travelled at the wrong return time and consequently issued penalty notice's to my daughter her 18 yr old son and my other daughter.

They have appealled based on the fact that no return time was on the phone app, also when the inspector looked at my daughters phone he also agreed that it was not clear and he would have to inform his manager of this.

Now my daughter who bought the tickets has stated that it was her responsibility to check the terms and conditions but my question is: can my other daughter and my 18 yr old grandson also be expected to know what tickets she had bought and what the restrictions were?

All 3 of them have appealled and all 3 have failed at appeal.

I would appreciate your thoughts before we take any further steps. Most obliged

 

[Papyrus]

Generally speaking the law expects adults, if someone has done the work of buying tickets on their behalf, to at least do the work of checking the ticket is valid or otherwise take responsibility for the consequences if it is not. Sorry not to be the bearer of better news.

 

[blake999]

Thank you I appreciate your comments, the tickets were bought within about 10 mins of travel, as they had parked up in the station car park, so in my other daughter and grandson's defense they did not think to ask any details, they all just rushed to get on the train. I just feel it is abit unfair that they are having to pay a fine for tickets they did not actually buy themselves.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@blake999. Where was the journey in question to and from? Also, what was the ticket type and the fare paid for (or paid on behalf of) each individual adult travelling?

 

[blake999]

From Seaton Carew to Metro Centre
Advance single
paid on a Family & Friends rail card
16 Aug 2023 SEC - MCE SEATON CAREW METROCENTRE SEC MCE TICKET TYPE ROUTE Advance Single Ap Northern Only ADULT Family & Friends Railcard DEPART 08:56 COACH * SEAT *** Itinerary - Mandatory Reservations 16 August: Seaton Carew 08:56 Northern 10:06 No specific seat Metrocentre Ticket Details: Information relating to compensation in the event of disruption can be found here This ticket has been issued subject to our website’s Terms & Conditions as well as the National Rail Conditions of Travel and CIV For refund information contact the retailer of your ticket Ticket Number TTEFE3932HZ Price £4.20 Purchased on 16 August 2023 NRS Booking Reference IH175128 Use this ticket on your phone

 

[island]

Unfortunately advance tickets are only valid when the precise train booked is used.

 

[blake999]

So do you think my other daughter and grandson will have no option than to pay the fine?

 

[John Palmer]

I may have misunderstood, but the details in post #5 appear to be those for the outbound journey at the starting of the shopping trip, rather than for the return journey on which your daughter was told that she was travelling at the wrong time. Can you clarify what tickets caused the issue of what I assume were penalty fare notices – is it possible to upload an image of those tickets? – and give details of the train service on which those notices were issued. Again, an image of one of the penalty fare notices would be helpful, with details of personal information suitably obscured.

If the information about the tickets' validity displayed on the mobile phone app was ambiguous then that could be a ground on which an appeal against the penalty fare might be upheld as “compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare” - see Regulation 16 of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/part/3. Even though the first appeal has been turned down your daughter and her children can take the dispute further by making second and third (final) stage appeals as provided for in the 2018 Regulations, but note that the second stage appeal must now be made within 14 days of receiving the panel's decision not to uphold the first stage appeal.

 

[Darandio]

If the information about the tickets' validity displayed on the mobile phone app was ambiguous then that could be a ground on which an appeal against the penalty fare might be upheld

If there is ambiguity regarding what the app was showing when trying to travel this doesn't alter the fact that the information would have been shown when selecting the ticket when booking. Any app i've ever used does say 'Specified Train Only' or similar.

 

[blake999]

I have attached a copy of the Penalty notice as requested.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2023 ==

This is the return ticket which my daughter had in her email but on her phone app no return time was displayed ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2023 ==

Also as you can see the Penalty notice states 'No Ticket' when in fact they had a ticket, they just came back at a different time.

 

[island]

The penalty fare says it was issued at Metrocentre.

Did the passengers actually get on a train back or were they stopped in the station?

 

[John Palmer]

Thank you @blake999 for uploading those details, which confirmed my suspicion that we didn't previously have details of the ticket(s) that caused the problem. We can now see that the problem ticket was also an Advance, and as such valid only on a specific service, in this case the 1529 MetroCentre departure. I assume that your daughter and her children were on a later service, in which case the tickets held appear not to have been valid and the penalty fares correctly issued as a consequence.

The 1720 issue time for the PFN suggests that it may have been issued either on the 1629 MetroCentre departure shortly before arrtival at Seaton Carew or seven minutes after departure from MetroCentre on the 1713 service. In either of those cases it is difficult to see how the notice can be correct in saying that it was issued at MetroCentre. And difficult to see a legitimate basis for it to be issued at MetroCentre before a return train was boarded.

I have no idea what information is presented by the particular app concerned to the intending traveller as regards ticket validity on particular trains. I can't see any good reason for not displaying with the downloaded ticket a warning that the ticket is valid for 'Specified train only', and if that information is not presented on the ticket then there is an obvious risk of the passenger forgetting ticket restrictions that were only announced ot the stage of ticket selection. Presumably both outbound and return advances were purchased shortly before departure from Seaton Carew; i.e. at least seven hours earlier at around 0845?

I see nothing to be lost here by making a second stage appeal against the penalty fare, on the 'compelling reasons' basis I previously suggested. If the ticket displayed on the mobile's app does not warn that it it is only valid on a specified train service, supporting the appeal by submitting a screen capture showing that to be the case may be helpful. An additional point that may potentially be made by your son and second daughter (the one on whose behalf the first daughter made the ticket purchase) is that if the restriction of the ticket's validity to a specific service was only apparent at the ticket purchase stage, the absence of any information about the restriction on the ticket itself precluded them from making their own checks as to its validity.

 

[blake999]

Yes, they all got on at Metrocentre and just after getting on the inspector approached them, checked the tickets on my daughters phone app and stated they had in effect committed a 'felony' as they had not been on the correct time train, both my daughters stated this had been a genuine mistake and would happily pay any extra fee, he told them that they would have to each pay an extra £13.25 and he had no option other than to issue them with the penalty fine each, when the train conductor came down a little time later my daughter spoke to him and he stated that they had been very unluckly and if he had checked their tickets he would have informed them that they needed to pay the extra and would have used his discretion as he could see it had been a genuine mistake, he told them to appeal.

 

[blake999]

As the first appeal has failed, it they appeal 2nd tier does the 'clock' stop again for the option to pay the £50 instead of £100 penalty fine?

 

[John Palmer]

As the first appeal has failed, it they appeal 2nd tier does the 'clock' stop again for the option to pay the £50 instead of £100 penalty fine?

Yes, and a statement to that effect appears, as it must, on the penalty fare notice. Incidentally, I see no statement on the uploaded copy of the PFN that the recipient has the right to appeal against the penalty fare and an explanation of how he or she can do so. Possibly the portion of the PFN that sets out this statement and explanation doesn't appear in the uploaded image of it due to truncation of the notice as it appears in the image, but the PFN is defective if it omits such a statement and explanation, and that defect would by itself be a compelling ground of appeal on the basis that the penalty fare had not been charged in accordance with the requirements of the 2018 Regulations. It would certainly be suprising for Northern Trains to have made such an error when setting up their PFNs for issue, so I would expect such a statement and explanation to appear somewhere on the notice.

Apologies, in a previous post I should have made reference to your grandson rather than your son.

 

[reb0118]

As a side issue about the responsibility it doesn't matter to Northern who pays but that it is paid. Therefore if one party feels morally responsible to the other parties they can pay on their behalf.

Obviously, only after the appeals process is exhausted.

On a personal note I do concur that, whilst technically correct, penalty fares for this type of infraction do leave a sour taste in the mouth.

 

[Snow1964]

I think these type of tickets with very strict conditions are going to put people off travelling when penalties are raised, as if you have no tickets whatsoever

I especially don't like it saying no specific seats, because it could be argued that implies not tied to a specific seat on specific train.
Should be much better worded as can sit anywhere on specific train departing xx:xx only

 

[blake999]

Many thanks for everyone's feedbacks and comments - my daughter who bought the tickets has today paid her's and her son's fine, she did this over the telephone and did not realise could only pay one fine at a time and was then notified by her phone provider that each payment has cost her £5 this has turned out to be a very very expensive trip for school uniforms - I know the onus is on you to make sure you have correct tickets etc but I really feel for my daughters as mistakes happen, both have said they will certainly give Northern trains a wide berth from now on and go by car - and the government want us to use 'public transport' really

 

[Puffing Devil]

Wow - some gouging going on there by the mobile companies for the "Network Access Charges" which are per minute and can be up to 67p/min for PAYG mobiles.

Maybe worth pointing out in some generic advice to pay online when possible.

Call costs guide

If you’re confused by call charges or don’t know your 0300 from your 0845 and 0844 numbers, then we have the perfect guide for you.

www.ofcom.org.uk

 

[WesternLancer]

Many thanks for everyone's feedbacks and comments - my daughter who bought the tickets has today paid her's and her son's fine, she did this over the telephone and did not realise could only pay one fine at a time and was then notified by her phone provider that each payment has cost her £5 this has turned out to be a very very expensive trip for school uniforms - I know the onus is on you to make sure you have correct tickets etc but I really feel for my daughters as mistakes happen, both have said they will certainly give Northern trains a wide berth from now on and go by car - and the government want us to use 'public transport' really

Just to say your family have my considerable sympathy over all this. There is good advice up thread so if you feel it allows others in the party to pursue an appeal as suggested good luck to them with it - people here will give good advice and would no doubt also help with the exact wording to use in the appeal to help maximise your prospects.

I suspect the railway has lost potential customers for good now - but FWIW with these Advance tickets with no flexibility I always price up the maximum price I would need to pay for flexibility for a trip eg price of a Day Return, and if the discounted Advance fare does not give a decent price reduction over that (in my personal view at least £5 discount) I don't bother with them.

 

[fandroid]

I suspect the railway has lost potential customers for good now - but FWIW with these Advance tickets with no flexibility I always price up the maximum price I would need to pay for flexibility for a trip eg price of a Day Return, and if the discounted Advance fare does not give a decent price reduction over that (in my personal view at least £5 discount) I don't bother with them.

The marketing for these "bargain" tickets never says "and if you try to use it on another train you could be asked to pay a minimum extra of £50"

 

[WesternLancer]

The marketing for these "bargain" tickets never says "and if you try to use it on another train you could be asked to pay a minimum extra of £50"

A point very well made (perhaps ought to be required to be stated in at least v small print at the bottom of the advert!)

 

[yorkie]

Please see:

Penalty Fares being charged for being on the wrong train on an Advance ticket

It is not disputed that traditionally, if a passenger used a "walk-up" fare at an invalid time (e.g. Super Off Peak used at an Off Peak time and so on) were not liable to a Penalty Fare, but merely the full difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare (including any Railcard...

www.railforums.co.uk