Penalty fine

[mltyorks1246]

Good afternoon,
I’m not a frequent train traveller and would welcome advice from the forum. I was travelling today and boarded a train thinking I could buy a ticket onboard. Two guards came round to check tickets and I produced my bank card only to be told I was being issued with a penalty fare of £50 plus £14.10 for the train ticket. I apologised, explained I don’t travel on trains and would be happy to buy a ticket. I explained I’d just been to see my Nana with dementia in a care home and my mind is not where it should be. I am not a bad person, it was not deliberate. What should I do here? Just pay or appeal. Welcome your advice. Thank you

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@mltyorks1246. Welcome to the forum. Can you upload a copy of whatever PF paperwork you were issued with? Please be sure to cover up or otherwise obscure any name, address and ID number that may be showing. By the way, it's a 'Penalty Fare', so not a fine.

Be useful if you could also provide some additional background info as regards the journey, as per the following thread...

Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Guidance for those asking for advice: Please bear in mind the following, when asking for advice in this section: We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example: The stations* where you actually started & finished your journey The stations* where you changed...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

. I am not a bad person, it was not deliberate. What should I do here?

Penalty Fare Notices are issued for genuine mistakes and do not imply any wrongdoing.

 

[WesternLancer]

Good afternoon,
I’m not a frequent train traveller and would welcome advice from the forum. I was travelling today and boarded a train thinking I could buy a ticket onboard. Two guards came round to check tickets and I produced my bank card only to be told I was being issued with a penalty fare of £50 plus £14.10 for the train ticket. I apologised, explained I don’t travel on trains and would be happy to buy a ticket. I explained I’d just been to see my Nana with dementia in a care home and my mind is not where it should be. I am not a bad person, it was not deliberate. What should I do here? Just pay or appeal. Welcome your advice. Thank you

Sorry to hear about this experience, after going to see your Nana it’s not what you need. You have my sympathy.

If you post the info asked for you’ll get good advice here on your options.

But the Penalty Fare is reduced by £50 for prompt payment so don’t miss that deadline. If you do appeal what you pay is refunded, if you do decide to appeal. Tho if you appeal it stops the clock on that discount deadline.

People here will advise if you have a decent chance of an appeal being successful but they will need to see paperwork given to look for an Appeal basis you can use.

 

[ikcdab]

It's difficult to see what grounds you have for appeal. It is an offence to board a train without a ticket (unless there was no way of buying one). There are warning signs at every station. Ignorance of the law or that you had a tough day are no defence you are best to pay up and learn the lesson.

 

[furlong]

I’m not a frequent train traveller and would welcome advice from the forum. I was travelling today and boarded a train thinking I could buy a ticket onboard.

The way things work is that every station where you risk getting a Penalty Fare if you don't buy a ticket before travelling is supposed to have prominent notices about this on display at the entrance to every platform and at other locations around the station so that at least one notice was readily visible to you before you boarded the train.: Assuming this is true, you cannot then, in law, get away with claiming you weren't aware of this fact.

So if you want to appeal, you should go back to the station and work out why you weren't aware of the fact and take some photos to prove that the legal requirement was not met and as such the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations.

What station was this? If you upload a copy of the complete paperwork with personal details covered up, people here can check for any issuing errors.

You can see an example of such an appeal here:

Stansted Airport fines

Went through today. Certainly is another huge poster on the right hand side above the ramp with a few different languages. It's all over the gates too. I wish the OP well with the appeal but I would be very surprised for GA to overturn it given how clear the signage is. Thanks - a few people...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[MotCO]

Penalty Fares have to be issued strictly according to the regulations. We therefore need to see the Penalty Fare voucher you were given to check the reason is correct, and know the stations and signs displayed there to ensure the correct wording is used.

 

[furlong]

Penalty Fare Notices are issued for genuine mistakes and do not imply any wrongdoing.

On the contrary, a Penalty Fare DOES always imply wrongdoing - the clue is in its name, "Penalty" - namely disregarding at least one readily visible notice at your origin station that the law assumes you would have seen warning you that if you don't buy your ticket before boarding a Penalty Fare may be imposed upon you. Many stations also have additional unregulated notices saying something similar.

They are not intended to be issued for "genuine mistakes" but certainly can be and often are, but when this happens the appeals mechanism should be used for an independent assessment of the circumstances concerned.

 

[island]

They are not intended to be issued for "genuine mistakes" but certainly can be and often are, but when this happens the appeals mechanism should be used for an independent assessment of the circumstances concerned.

This is not an accurate statement.

 

[Egg Centric]

This is not an accurate statement.

They are not intended to be issued for "genuine mistakes" but certainly can be and often are, but when this happens the appeals mechanism should be used for an independent assessment of the circumstances concerned.

I think a fair reading of the history of them is that they were originally brought in for wrong doing but because of procedural concerns (innocent until proven guilty etc) by parliament it was couched with a "nudge nudge wink wink" that *technically* the fare holders were not being accused of wrong doing, with the intention (probably not unreasonable at the time with the conditions on the ground) being that discretion would be used to keep them targeted at wrong uns.

Then over time, like most of these cunning wheezes, particularly ones affected by the profit motive the "letter of the law" interpretation slowly won out over the "spirit of the law" to the extent that now TOCs and RPIs (but not most guards even if PF trained) genuinely think it's fine to issue them to people who've made an honest mistake. But the public haven't caught up to this.

Would you both agree with this? Both disagree?

 

[island]

I'm reasonably OK with that assessment yes as respects the intent of penalty fares, and I happy to concede that without furlong needing to have recourse to his 30 year old Hansard. Using the appeals mechanism is however a waste of the time of everyone involved where it is clear that the penalty fares have been issued in accordance with the legislation, which has been amended greatly since then.

 

[KirkstallOne]

I’m sure if the Rail Minister was asked ‘should people be punished for honest mistakes?’ they would say no (or rather wouldn’t clearly say yes) because they know it’s a bad look, but then a common phrase used when issuing Penalty Fares is similar to this example from Northern:

Passengers may consider Penalty Fares to be an accusation of fare evasion, but this is not the case. A Penalty Fare is simply a higher fare which may be issued under the Penalty Fare Rules and Regulations.

Which obviously does encompass honest mistakes. The fact that people regard a ‘penalty’ as a punishment also seems indisputable and nothing the railway says can change that reality.

Given honest mistakes are actually criminal offences under the railway byelaws this is not unsurprising as otherwise you could have the absurd situation of PFs being used for dishonest behaviour and railway byelaws being used for honest mistakes in an effort to maximise revenue.

Also worth considering Northern regularly lump Penalty Fares, settlements and court fines together as ‘fare evasion’ when announcing their latest efforts:

“The appetite for ‘risking it’ has clearly taken a hit in the past 12 months – and the increase in the penalty fare is no doubt a factor.”

“The reduction in attempted fare evasion is a victory for taxpayers who ultimately foot the bill for those that try not to pay.”

(Mark Powles, Northern Commercial and Customer Director in 2024)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Using the appeals mechanism is however a waste of the time of everyone involved where it is clear that the penalty fares have been issued in accordance with the legislation

I don't agree.

One of the grounds for an appeal is that "there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare."

This ground isn't about whether the Penalty Fare was issued correctly, this ground of appeal is about whether it was fair to issue one.

I would encourage more people to appeal using this ground. I think everyone should appeal it, right to stage three, on this basis. There is no financial penalty for doing so. People should exercise their rights more when it comes to the railway. The railway are quick enough to.

They need to be realistic with their expectations- the appeals panels probably won't agree that their circumstances were compelling. The pseudo-independent panels at stages one and two certainly won't. But if you don't make the argument then nobody considers it.

To answer the OP, any appeal you make would need to be on this basis, unless there is an issue with how the Penalty Fare was issued. To advise you on that we'd need more detail, as in the pinned post.

You mention visiting an ill grandmother; you would need to explain why this situation means it's unreasonable to charge you a Penalty Fare. I don't think the appeals panels would agree but that doesn't mean you shouldn't appeal.

 

[snail]

One of the grounds for an appeal is that "there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare."

How is "I have a sick relative so didn't read the Penalty Fare warning notices" a compelling reason? If you do something wrong, albeit mistakenly, just face up to the fact there may be a penalty instead of looking for spurious loopholes.

 

[Tetchytyke]

How is "I have a sick relative so didn't read the Penalty Fare warning notices" a compelling reason?

If you think it is a compelling reason then you should appeal explaining why you think it is a compelling reason. Let the appeal panel decide if you are right or not. That is what they are there for.

The appeal panel probably won't agree that it is a compelling reason, but I still think people should exercise their right to appeal.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The appeal panel probably won't agree that it is a compelling reason, but I still think people should exercise their right to appeal.

OK. I'll bite. How is it in anyone's interest (most obviously, the appellant or the train company) to make an appeal with no chance of success?

I'll happily accept that there may be different opinions of whether a 'compelling reason' exists, but where it's obvious that one doesn't, how is it helpful to make everyone go through a process where the conclusion is preordained?

 

[Tetchytyke]

OK. I'll bite. How is it in anyone's interest (most obviously, the appellant or the train company) to make an appeal with no chance of success?

A minuscule chance of success isn't the same as zero chance of success.

It's clearly not in the railway's interests for people to appeal, which is why they make it as difficult and as convoluted as they do. Appeals cost them money.

Why is it not in the appellant's interests though? There is no financial cost to lodging an appeal and there is no financial penalty if you lose an appeal. Yes, you have to take time out of your day to fill in the appeal form. But other than that, where's the downside?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

But other than that, where's the downside?

There's a value to hope. And if there's no hope, that's false value.

So how is it worth making the railways incur a cost when no one will benefit?

 

[AlterEgo]

So how is it worth making the railways incur a cost when no one will benefit?

I think if the train companies were less feckless and the appeals process was more fair and reliable I would have more sympathy for this argument, but honestly, screw them. Let every passenger appeal. Let it cost them. No sympathy.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So how is it worth making the railways incur a cost when no one will benefit?

I refer to the answer from @AlterEgo, who put it much better than I could.

There's a value to hope. And if there's no hope, that's false value.

If someone appeals knowing they’ll probably or even almost certainly fail, where is the issue?

The point is that the only way you’ll definitely fail in an appeal is if you don’t submit one.

I don’t think the OP’s circumstances would be seen by an appeal panel as sufficiently compelling, but given they are motivated enough to come here to ask for advice I’d say they should be sufficiently motivated to appeal. Just as long as they don’t have false hope.

 

[SuspectUsual]

There's a value to hope. And if there's no hope, that's false value.

So how is it worth making the railways incur a cost when no one will benefit?

For a start, it buys a bit of time for someone unable to afford the penalty but who would be able to should the payment date slip beyond their next pay day or two

 

[KirkstallOne]

All interesting discussions but if @mltyorks1246 uploads the PF receipt and details of their journey there may be much more solid grounds for appeal, as we often see. Issued for the wrong amount seems to be a particularly common one.

 

[Kite159]

Otherwise it could be classed as simply a classic case of paying only when challenged, especially if both origin & destination station are unbarriered.

Sadly there are some on this forum who think payment is optional and how dare the evil rail industry attempt to charge more when someone gets caught out trying to avoid paying.

 

[AlterEgo]

Otherwise it could be classed as simply a classic case of paying only when challenged, especially if both origin & destination station are unbarriered.

Sadly there are some on this forum who think payment is optional and how dare the evil rail industry attempt to charge more when someone gets caught out trying to avoid paying.

If they're going to charge more then they have to do it lawfully. It isn't much to ask, given the passenger is also asked to behave lawfully.

 

[island]

If someone appeals knowing they’ll probably or even almost certainly fail, where is the issue?

I said in post 11 that it is a waste of everybody's time, and I stand by that.