Penalty fine

[Toby123]

hello everyone I was stoped on Friday for not having a ticket for feltham to farnborough I’ve done this 7 times but not been stoped for this. this is my first time being stopped I’m 18 haven’t had a letter yet what is the chances of me being prosecuted and getting a criminal record. I would like to pay a fine as I know I was in the wrong what should I do?

 

[Gloster]

I suggest that you edit the photo to blank out the reference numbers. Otherwise the railway could tie any statements you make on this forum to your case.

Please note: I am not one of this forum’s experts.

 

[Toby123]

Also how long does it take for the letter to be delivered

 

[zwk500]

On a quick note, you will only pay a fine if you're convicted and do get a criminal record. I suspect what you want to pay is the administrative or out-of-court settlement, which avoids going to court completely.

It's entirely in SWR's gift whether or not they offer a settlement, and they can choose not to do so if there's aggravating circumstances like multiple offences. You'll have to look through the board to work out how likely SWR are to settle.

They will most likely write to you asking for your version of events, and if this happens you should follow the advice that @Hadders usually puts forward (you can find it by looking in other threads on the Disputes board). SWR have up to 6 months to start this case, so the letter could arrive any time up until a bit more than 6 months away. When it arrives, DO NOT IGNORE IT. If you live with other people, make sure they know to give it to you straight away so that you can engage with it. Ignoring the letter will almost certainly result in the case being sent to court.

Quickly, as it may shape the advice you get - Did SWR ask how many times you'd done this? If so, what did you say? Can you take any actions to convince SWR you intend to pay for your fare from now on such as a 16-25 railcard or College/Employer scheme?

 

[Toby123]

They didn’t ask me how many times I’ve done this I just don’t wanna get a criminal record

 

[Mcr Warrior]

They didn’t ask me how many times I’ve done this I just don’t wanna get a criminal record

Not many do want a criminal record, to be fair. If you engage with the train company, you've every chance of not getting one.

Whilst a so-called "out of court" settlement isn't 100% guaranteed, if one is offered, expect to pay a three figure sum plus the full anytime single fare at £15.50 per journey for each and every time the investigation team determines that you didn't pay the correct amount.

N.B. This may possibly just be the one for the journey on Friday 4th November 2022 if the train company are for whatever reason unaware of your previous infractions.

 

[Toby123]

Not many do want a criminal record, to be fair. If you engage with the train company, you've every chance of not getting one.

Whilst a so-called "out of court" settlement isn't 100% guaranteed, if one is offered, expect to pay a three figure sum plus the full anytime single fare at £15.50 per journey for each and every time the investigation team determines that you didn't pay the correct amount.

N.B. This may possibly just be the one for the journey on Friday 4th November 2022 if the train company are for whatever reason unaware of your previous infractions.

How common is it to get a criminal record because of this as the ticket was less than £20

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How common is it to get a criminal record because of this as the ticket was less than £20

Not too often I would suggest, but if you fail to engage with the train company and ignore correspondence from them (presume you've provided a correct and up to date name and address) you may then end up being taken to court, where you'll almost certainly be convicted based upon what you've told us. And that's to be avoided.

 

[Toby123]

Not too often I would suggest, but if you fail to engage with the train company and ignore correspondence from them (presume you've provided a correct and up to date name and address) you may then end up being taken to court, where you'll almost certainly be convicted based upon what you've told us.

Would you say it’s worth calling them at the end of the week to keep on it so I can pay the fine what ever it may be as when I got stopped on the Friday the ticket inspector said he sends it over to them to establish how much the fine will be

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Would you say it’s worth calling them at the end of the week to keep on it so I can pay the fine what ever it may be as when I got stopped on the Friday the ticket inspector said he sends it over to them to establish how much the fine will be

Best to wait to see what forum expert @Hadders has to say on the matter, but generally, the initial advice is to wait to hear from the train company's investigation team rather than you go chasing them.

By the way, the settlement that you might be asked to pay isn't a "fine" as such, although it may seem like that.

 

[Toby123]

Best to wait to see what forum expert @Hadders has to say on the matter, but generally, the initial advice is to wait to hear from the train company's investigation team rather than you go chasing them.

By the way, the settlement that you might be asked to pay isn't a "fine" as such, although it may seem like that.

As long I don’t get any Criminal record or anything like that as I would probably loose my job I understand what I done was stupid and I shouldn’t of done it and I’ve learned my lesson

 

[Watershed]

Would you say it’s worth calling them at the end of the week to keep on it so I can pay the fine what ever it may be as when I got stopped on the Friday the ticket inspector said he sends it over to them to establish how much the fine will be

There is no point phoning them now. You need to wait until you receive a letter from them, setting out what offences they are alleging.

It's now largely down to SWR as to whether they prosecute you (and hence you get a criminal record) or not; apart from responding in a contrite and carefully considered manner, there's not much you can do to influence it.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would you say it’s worth calling them at the end of the week to keep on it so I can pay the fine what ever it may be as when I got stopped on the Friday the ticket inspector said he sends it over to them to establish how much the fine will be

I agree with others, it’s not worth trying to pre-empt their correspondence, this could even confuse the process.

That bit about them “establishing how much the fine will be” is not really what the revenue protection staff means, he’s sent it to the prosecution team for them to decide what to do next, ie whether to offer a settlement, or initiate a prosecution, and the first thing they’ll do before deciding that is ask for your explanation.

They may for a start be wondering how you avoid the gatelines at Feltham and Farnborough?

You’re not now going to get a retrospective penalty fare, although going by your thread title I suspect that’s what you were hoping for?

 

[Toby123]

Judging on what I’ve said do you thi

I agree with others, it’s not worth trying to pre-empt their correspondence, this could even confuse the process.

That bit about them “establishing how much the fine will be” is not really what the revenue protection staff means, he’s sent it to the prosecution team for them to decide what to do next, ie whether to offer a settlement, or initiate a prosecution, and the first thing they’ll do before deciding that is ask for your explanation.

They may for a start be wondering how you avoid the gatelines at Feltham and Farnborough?

You’re not now going to get a retrospective penalty fare, although going by your thread title I suspect that’s what you were hoping for?

judging on what I’ve said do you guys think I’ll get a criminal conviction?

 

[Watershed]

judging on what I’ve said do you guys think I’ll get a criminal conviction?

If you are prosecuted, then yes you will. But there is a reasonable chance that you will be offered a settlement, which if you pay it, will avoid you being prosecuted.

I’m just trying to sort this out without being taken to court and or getting a criminal record

With respect, whilst you may now regret your actions and want to avoid a prosecution, the only way to 100% avoid that would have been to have bought a ticket.

It is now down to SWR to decide how they want to proceed.

 

[Toby123]

If you are prosecuted, then yes you will. But there is a reasonable chance that you will be offered a settlement, which if you pay it, will avoid you being prosecuted.


With respect, whilst you may now regret your actions and want to avoid a prosecution, the only way to 100% avoid that would have been to have bought a ticket.

It is now down to SWR to decide how they want to proceed.

When I get sent the letter asking what happened what should be my best cause of action as I’m very worried?

 

[Elecman]

Ussually 2-6 weeks depending on thier workload but they do have upto 6 months

 

[Toby123]

Ussually 2-6 weeks depending on thier workload but they do have upto 6 months

Thankyou

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As I’m only 18 and i know I should of bought the ticket

Which you should have bought on maybe seven other occasions, not just the time you did get caught.

Please be sure to upload the letter you receive in due course, with your personal details suitably obscured, so that the forum experts on here can further advise on how best you might reply without unnecessarily incriminating yourself.

 

[Toby123]

Which you should have bought on maybe seven other occasions, not just the time you did get caught.

Please be sure to upload the letter you receive in due course, with your personal details suitably obscured, so that the forum experts on here can further advise on how best you might reply without unnecessarily incriminating yourself.

Ok it’s just it was my first week of work and was low on money and I feel like a stupid judgment by me will effect the rest of my life

 

[greyman42]

deleted

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2022 ==

As long I don’t get any Criminal record or anything like that as I would probably loose my job

What line of work are you in?

 

[zwk500]

Ok it’s just it was my first week of work and was low on money and I feel like a stupid judgment by me will effect the rest of my life

Regardless of if this goes to court or not, a criminal conviction of this kind is unlikely to affect the rest of your life unless you intend to go into a line of work that requires extremely stringent checks. Others can cover the legal detail better than I can.

 

[WesternLancer]

When I get sent the letter asking what happened what should be my best cause of action as I’m very worried?

Your best course of action would be to head back here for advice on how best to reply to it (and plenty of other threads you can look over to get the general idea). Until you get that letter there is not much you can do apart from:

a) making sure you have the correct ticket bought before you step on any trains from this point onwards
b) buy a railcard ASAP (as it shows you have taken steps to reduce your travel costs and learned from your previous error of judgment in evading the fare)
c) save up the sum you are going to need to pay the railway to make things right (either an out of court settlement that they may offer, or a court fine if they did prosecute - which I suspect can be avoided if you follow advice here).

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

How common is it to get a criminal record because of this as the ticket was less than £20

We have seen train companies porosecute people over 10p before. That said if this is the first time you have come to the attention of the train company I wouldn't expect you to be prosecuted, unless there is more to this case that you haven't told us.

Would you say it’s worth calling them at the end of the week to keep on it so I can pay the fine what ever it may be as when I got stopped on the Friday the ticket inspector said he sends it over to them to establish how much the fine will be

I do not recommend doing this. If anything it will cause more confusion or delay. Your case will be one of many the Investigation Department is delaing with and I'm afraid you'll just need to wait until the letter arrives. I appreciate it's easy to say this but try and put the incident to the back of your mind and get on with your life until the letter arrives

As long I don’t get any Criminal record or anything like that as I would probably loose my job I understand what I done was stupid and I shouldn’t of done it and I’ve learned my lesson

How serious do you think the offending should be before someone gets prosecuted? You have comitted a criminal offence on seven occasions. Where should the line be drawn?

I expect you to receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive but can be sooner although it shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and aski for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before. The train company will be able to search your purchase history and you will need to be careful how you reply to the letter. You should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it. for you.

 

[furlong]

One key point is that if you told any lies, you should correct them at the first opportunity. If you gave any relevant false information in the heat of the moment when you were stopped, then when you write your letter you need to apologise for that and correct it. As long as you correct it at the first opportunity like that, it wouldn't normally affect a decision whether or not to offer a settlement, but if they discovered a lie themselves and you had the opportunity to correct it but did not, then that could make it hard to avoid prosecution as the outcome. (Why should they believe someone who is continuing to lie, if they say they won't do it again?)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

hello everyone I was stoped on Friday for not having a ticket for feltham to farnborough I’ve done this 7 times but not been stoped for this. this is my first time being stopped

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before. The train company will be able to search your purchase history and you will need to be careful how you reply to the letter. You should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

Did wonder about this particular aspect of the case. How would the train company's investigation team get to know about any such possible previous occasions if the OP simply travelled with no ticket(s) whatsoever (in which case there'd be no ticket purchasing history to check) although it does beg the question as to how any ticket barriers were avoided at both ends of such journeys.

 

[spag23]

The OP merely says he didn't have tickets specifically between two named stations, presumably the start and finish points. So has he not told us about doughnutting (for new readers: buyng cheap tickets to/from the end stations just to get through the barriers, with an unpaid section in the middle)? This would paint a different scenario from "forgetting" to buy a ticket, or expecting to buy one on the train.
The forum can't help people who don't us the full story.

 

[WesternLancer]

The OP merely says he didn't have tickets specifically between two named stations, presumably the start and finish points. So has he not told us about doughnutting (for new readers: buyng cheap tickets to/from the end stations just to get through the barriers, with an unpaid section in the middle)? This would paint a different scenario from "forgetting" to buy a ticket, or expecting to buy one on the train.
The forum can't help people who don't us the full story.

So maybe it is the full story? For example do we know that those stations have ticket barriers that would most of the time be likely to be in operation?

 

[Hadders]

We don’t know the full details of what happened which means we can only offer generic advice. I agree that if the OP hasn’t purchased any tickets at all then there will be nothing to research, but if some tickets have been purchased then there will be something to research.

 

[spag23]

The National Rail website says they both have gates. So only the OP can clarify how he got through them, eg they were left open due to being unstaffed.