Penalty Fares from Duffield Station

[Edward101]

Duffield, my local station, on the Derwent Valley Line between Derby and Matlock, is shown in East Midlands Trains literature as being a Penalty Fares station, along with Belper. However, the sole ticket machine at Duffield is hideously unreliable (based on my experiences, there is a 50% chance of it being inoperable) and I notice that most local travellers continue to pay the guard on the train, even when the ticket machine is working properly. The guards on the route, in my experience, seem happy to sell tickets on the train and very rarely mention the existence of a Penalty Fares scheme, and I have only once seen a revenue protection team on this route. Admittedly I am not on it every day, but use it around twice a week on average, so perhaps my experiences are not typical. Interestingly, as of August 2017, the posters warning of the penalty fares scheme are no longer displayed at the station.

I am therefore wondering whether the penalty fares scheme at Duffield is rigidly enforced, or whether it has recently been disbanded. It is curious that Duffield and Belper are the only two penalty fares stations on the route. Would the lack of posters warning of the scheme prevent penalty fares from being issued? For your peace of mind, I am not a fare dodger or planning to dodge fares, and always use the help point to inform railway staff if the ticket machine is inoperable, and actively seek out the guard on the train, generally informing them of the situation before I board. If the ticket machine is operable, I always use it. Generally, I am uneasy about buying on board given that it is shown on the map as a PF station and tread very carefully if I am required to do so when the machine goes wrong (or won't accept cash). Often, when I have mentioned the penalty fares scheme to guards on the route, they have given me a funny look or said 'don't be daft, I can't issue a PF'. Why is this? Even if guards can't issue PFs, wouldn't they normally warn travellers of the scheme and advise them to tread very carefully? There seems to be a lack of consistency in the enforcement of this scheme on this route, and certainly it hasn't deterred regular travellers from buying on board, even when the ticket machine is working correctly.

 

[yorkie]

Duffield, my local station, on the Derwent Valley Line between Derby and Matlock, is shown in East Midlands Trains literature as being a Penalty Fares station, along with Belper. However, the sole ticket machine at Duffield is hideously unreliable (based on my experiences, there is a 50% chance of it being inoperable)

That's when having a rail travel voucher can be handy, as it guarantees your right to buy on board without an argument over an unreliable machine.

and I notice that most local travellers continue to pay the guard on the train, even when the ticket machine is working properly. The guards on the route, in my experience, seem happy to sell tickets on the train and very rarely mention the existence of a Penalty Fares scheme, and I have only once seen a revenue protection team on this route. Admittedly I am not on it every day, but use it around twice a week on average, so perhaps my experiences are not typical. Interestingly, as of August 2017, the posters warning of the penalty fares scheme are no longer displayed at the station.

If the signage does not meet the required specification as per the PF legislation, then any PFs issued from Duffield would be null & void.

I am therefore wondering whether the penalty fares scheme at Duffield is rigidly enforced, or whether it has recently been disbanded. It is curious that Duffield and Belper are the only two penalty fares stations on the route. Would the lack of posters warning of the scheme prevent penalty fares from being issued?

It should do, but if any are, an appeal should be successful.

For your peace of mind, I am not a fare dodger or planning to dodge fares,

Penalty Fares are not applicable to fare dodgers anyway, so it's a moot point

The view of many rail operators who issue Penalty Fares is along the following lines:

"A Penalty Fare is a charge that [the operator] is allowed to make under the Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine, and anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding, or attempting to avoid, paying their fare"

(source: Chiltern Penalty fare leaflet)
Basically it's a higher than normal fare charged if an authorised collector encounters a passenger who ignored warning signs and didn't use an opportunity to pay before boarding using their chosen payment method.

If there was either no opportunity to pay before boarding or appropriate signage in place, a PF cannot be charged.

and always use the help point to inform railway staff if the ticket machine is inoperable, and actively seek out the guard on the train, generally informing them of the situation before I board.

There is no requirement to do this, though it can be helpful to do so

If the ticket machine is operable, I always use it. Generally, I am uneasy about buying on board given that it is shown on the map as a PF station and tread very carefully if I am required to do so when the machine goes wrong (or won't accept cash). Often, when I have mentioned the penalty fares scheme to guards on the route, they have given me a funny look or said 'don't be daft, I can't issue a PF'. Why is this?

Although there are some exceptions (and I believe the London route EMT Guards may be an exception?) Guards are not authorised PF collectors. It is considered poor practice for Guards to be authorised collectors, though that doesn't stop some companies.

Even if guards can't issue PFs, wouldn't they normally warn travellers of the scheme and advise them to tread very carefully?

In theory the tickets they issue are meant to have a penalty fare warning on the rear. In practice, I suspect they don't.

There seems to be a lack of consistency in the enforcement of this scheme on this route, and certainly it hasn't deterred regular travellers from buying on board, even when the ticket machine is working correctly.

Yes, the Penalty Fare scheme on this route goes against the principles of good practice. So I am glad to hear it's not enforced.

 

[causton]

If the posters are not there, any Penalty Fares issued are unenforcable. So that clears that one up. It may be worth taking photos of where they were to prove this, if need be, but...

If the ticket machine is not working, the staff will already know about it in most cases, as there are ways for revenue protection staff to check. Where I work, we get an email every couple of hours saying which ones are out of service, not accepting cash, etc.

Guards should issue Penalty Fare warnings (just a separate ticket with a warning on it) usually if the person would have been issued a PF. This is not rigidly enforced however, although it may say a warning on the back of the ticket.

I don't work for EMT and neither do I work anywhere near that line, but down here we have similar issues, with some people thinking they can get on the train without tickets as they are not always issued with warnings.

If you are worried, I would take a picture of the inoperable ticket machine and of any places where there were PF posters and now there are not, and if you do encounter an RPI show them, and it should be enough to prevent you from getting into any bother. Hopefully it won't get that far though!