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Penalty fared for travelling on a child ticket

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Millie Leakey

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I was recently given a penalty fine (June 4th). On the penalty fine the women put May the 4th so now it has doubled my fine. I am 15 years of age and she charged me for adult on child's ticket? Now I have got to go through the long process of trying to appeal but the longer it is the more the fine goes up they haven't yet replied to my appeal. This is out of order and completely unnecessary. I can't get hold of anyone direct its either recordings or mail. Does anyone know anyone I can ring to get this sorted and cleared or whoever can help?
 
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Max

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First off, where were you travelling to and from? What were the circumstances of the penalty fare (have you been accused of being too old for a child ticket)? We need more information.
 

RPI

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As the notice was incorrectly issued with an error on it then appeal on that basis and you should be alright.
 
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snail

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she clearly put the wrong date on purpose so she could get more money out of me.
Making allegations like this on a public forum can be construed as libel. Unless you have other evidence to support this be careful what you say, you could end up in a worse situation.
 

455driver

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it cannot be sorted out over the phone as there needs to be a "paper trail" (or email) so that there is no doubt about what is written (or said) in the correspondence.
 

34D

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I think you simply need to reply (by letter, sent recorded delivery) stating that:

-the alleged offence occurred on Tue 4th June and not 4th May

-on the date in question you were aged 15.

-you wish receive an apology.

Send this letter to both the company who is writing to you (which I guess will be their agent?), and the TOC themselves if different.
 

RPI

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The inspector wouldn't have deliberately put the wrong date, it happens, i've issued PF's with the wrong date, usually in the first few days of the month, like i said, the notice should not be issued with any mistakes on it and thus your appeal will be successful if you point out the error.
 

island

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The date was probably a mistake, and if you submit proof of age they should cancel the Penalty Fare.
 

pinguini

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The date was probably a mistake, and if you submit proof of age they should cancel the Penalty Fare.

Out of curiosity - should the burden of proof really lie on the passenger in this case?
 
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island

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I thought there was a section in the NRCoC stating that a passenger claiming a discounted fare was responsible for proving his entitlement to it, but I can't find it so may have misremembered. I can't therefore confirm the legal position. From a practical point of view, it would probably be substantially less hassle.
 

Tibbs

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The only part I can see relating to children is:

5. Children
Up to two children under five years of age may travel free of charge with a passenger holding a ticket or other authority to travel. However, children under five years of age who are travelling free may only occupy a seat which is not required by a passenger holding a ticket or appropriate authority to travel.
Children under 16 years of age are entitled to discounts on most tickets. If a discount is not available, it will be made clear to you when you buy your ticket.

The only other part I can see is in the responsibilities section:

Your obligations
You must:
• Have a valid ticket or tickets for the whole of your journey, at the time you want to
travel and on the route and trains you want to use. Unless otherwise indicated,
you must purchase your ticket before boarding the train you intend to use.
• Have a ticket or Permit to Travel before you get in a train where Penalty Fares
apply. Warning notices will be displayed at stations if they apply.
• Travel in the right train(s) and the right part of the train(s) - otherwise you could be
charged an excess or Penalty Fare. You may only change from standard class to first class areas if a member of staff in that train gives permission or you have paid the appropriate additional fare.
• Keep your ticket safe. It is your ticket, not the receipt for it, which gives you the right to travel. Do not lose, damage or attempt to alter your ticket.
• Show and, if asked by a member of Train Company staff, hand over your ticket and any associated Railcard/photocard for inspection.
• Keep to the applicable Byelaws. If you do not you could be refused travel entirely or asked to leave a train or station before you have completed your journey.

So by the looks of it the child doesn't have to prove that they're under 16, the onus is on the toc to prove they aren't.
 

34D

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Hence why I suggested she write informing them of her age, rather that providing proof straight away.
 

Tibbs

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Hence why I suggested she write informing them of her age, rather that providing proof straight away.

I should have quoted Island's post as that was the one I was responding to.

Apologies.
 

bb21

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So according to some people, any passenger can claim to be under 16, and as it is almost impossible to prove otherwise, this becomes a fare dodgers' haven.

I can't see how this theory works.

As for the OP, if you really were 15, send them your proof of age and it should be the easiest way to make the matter go away. If you can, carry some ID with you in the future. It would make things easier for everyone.
 

Tibbs

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So according to some people, any passenger can claim to be under 16, and as it is almost impossible to prove otherwise, this becomes a fare dodgers' haven.

I can't see how this theory works.

As for the OP, if you really were 15, send them your proof of age and it should be the easiest way to make the matter go away. If you can, carry some ID with you in the future. It would make things easier for everyone.

Unless you can find something in the NRCoC that says otherwise (I couldn't) then yes, it appears that that's exactly how it works. By the looks of it, as soon as someone holds a child ticket in their hand, it up to the TOC to demonstrate that they aren't a child.

Of course there's nothing to stop the toc from just selling child tickets via human beings (like staff tickets?), and have them refuse to sell to anyone who looks under age unless they provide some kind of ID.

I find it rather refreshing that there's a place on the railways where the deck isn't stacked completely in a TOC's favour and they actually have to shoulder some ticketing responsibility.

Pretty much everyone else who sells age restricted products and services takes responsibility for ensuring that the person purchasing is of age. The TOCs right now are the equivalent of porn sites on the web - you just have to click a button that says 'yes I'm sure I'm the right age'.
 

Deerfold

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The TOCs right now are the equivalent of porn sites on the web - you just have to click a button that says 'yes I'm sure I'm the right age'.

I've seen many analogies on this site - but I think that's a first!
 

Millie Leakey

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So according to some people, any passenger can claim to be under 16, and as it is almost impossible to prove otherwise, this becomes a fare dodgers' haven.

I can't see how this theory works.

As for the OP, if you really were 15, send them your proof of age and it should be the easiest way to make the matter go away. If you can, carry some ID with you in the future. It would make things easier for everyone.
I have done that they're yet to get back to me. Because the women put the wrong date wouldn't that mean in their eyes my 21 days would be up? So does my say not matter anymore?
 

island

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If the question of the 21 day limit comes up it should be easy to say there must have been a clerical error and to ask them to examine the book of penalty fare notices that the Authorised Collector issued yours from to see that those either side were issued in June and not May.
 

Matt Taylor

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So according to some people, any passenger can claim to be under 16, and as it is almost impossible to prove otherwise, this becomes a fare dodgers' haven.

Until their driving licence falls out of their wallet when they get their money out. Likewise a national insurance card, tattoos etc.
 

transmanche

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Until their driving licence falls out of their wallet when they get their money out. Likewise a national insurance card, tattoos etc.
Back in the 80s, a few bus conductors in my area would say "if you're smoking upstairs, you pay adult fare". :D
 

RJ

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The inspector wouldn't have deliberately put the wrong date, it happens, i've issued PF's with the wrong date, usually in the first few days of the month, like i said, the notice should not be issued with any mistakes on it and thus your appeal will be successful if you point out the error.

This is what they tell you. I was told it when I was first trained on Penalty Fares and also when I had RPI training recently. Staff actually genuinely believe it too, which is why that line about appealing and it will be successful all too often comes out.

I'd have believed it too, if it wasn't for my repeated experiences as a passenger. I've been on the other side, as a passenger more times than I care to remember.

The truth is, the people that deal with the appeals will do whatever they can to get out of approving the appeals - they run with the pretence that mistakes, inaccuracies and omissions on the paperwork are irrelevant and will reject the appeal, justifying it by turning the situation around on the customer. I've found this to be the case with both IRCAS and the RPSS, who will both err on the side of their customer, the TOCs if there is a discrepancy. I recently had IPFAS try to extract information from me in a roundabout manner to compensate for the RPI's failure to fill in the notice correctly - rather than approve the appeal on the basis the notice was not completed.

The appeals system is a sham. The sooner this is exposed and put right, the better all round I say.
 
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bb21

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Unless you can find something in the NRCoC that says otherwise (I couldn't) then yes, it appears that that's exactly how it works. By the looks of it, as soon as someone holds a child ticket in their hand, it up to the TOC to demonstrate that they aren't a child.

I'm not saying that you are wrong if that is what you think, just expressing my disbelief. I think that it is one of those areas where the onus should be on the passenger to prove their entitlement, which would make life much easier for everyone, but I am not going to suddenly start advising people as such because there is no such requirement, for now.

I have done that they're yet to get back to me. Because the women put the wrong date wouldn't that mean in their eyes my 21 days would be up? So does my say not matter anymore?

If the disagreement over your entitlement to a child fare is the only issue, then you should have nothing to worry about.

Make sure that you keep the proof of postage, in case they claim that they "never received it", and good luck.
 

Tibbs

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I'm not saying that you are wrong if that is what you think, just expressing my disbelief. I think that it is one of those areas where the onus should be on the passenger to prove their entitlement, which would make life much easier for everyone, but I am not going to suddenly start advising people as such because there is no such requirement, for now.

It's not 'what I think' it's what's in the NRCoC.
 

bb21

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It's not 'what I think' it's what's in the NRCoC.

I think you misunderstood.

"what you think" refers to the part "saying that you are wrong", not your claims.
 

richw

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If you can, carry some ID with you in the future. It would make things easier for everyone.

What ID would you suggest a minor carrying. Too young for driving licence, I don't know of any parent who would allow their child to carry round a passport simply due to the high value.
 

bb21

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What ID would you suggest a minor carrying. Too young for driving licence, I don't know of any parent who would allow their child to carry round a passport simply due to the high value.

This is one such scheme.

It is unlikely to affect the majority of youngsters in any case. If your appearance is more mature, surely it makes sense to carry some form of ID? As I said, makes things easier for everyone.

If cost is a concern, get a National Rail photocard. They should be available free of charge from staffed stations.

(Before anyone jumps in, no, you don't have to do it, but if you want to avoid confrontations and being challenged over the issue of age, then my suggestions would be a sensible one to follow.)
 

221129

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I can recommend the above Citizen card. I too have been in a similar situation but it didn't get to the PF stage as the RPI who was going to give me the PF was working with a friend of mine who managed to intervene. After this experience I got a citizen card and (Lost it) but had no further issues until recently by the sceptical RPI but one show of my Passport and no worries. Also RPIs will accept a photocopy of a birth certificate.
 

ATW Alex 101

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If cost is a concern, get a National Rail photocard. They should be available free of charge from staffed stations.

Yep they are free. I got my child rate photocard from Chester free of charge. All you need is a passport photo of yourself and some ID such as a passport or a birth certificate. I keep it handy with me at all times and I really do need it sometimes proving to guards/RPI's that I am indeed a child!
 

Tibbs

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Oh joy, another chip off our civil liberties to protect the profits of private companies.

As far as I know, the carrying of identity cards is not (yet) a legal requirement. I don't see why a toc should expect this when the government does not.
 
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