Penalty fare

[refluentsquid]

Hi.

Before I start - please realise I know I’m stupid and that it’s my all my fault. I already feel stupid enough, and don’t need reminding of it.

I was travelling back from London today on EMR. I paid for an advanced ticket with a railcard discount. I stupidly didn’t realise that the railcard expired last month. I know - it’s my responsibility (the ticket officer on the train ensured I knew by berating me).

I wondered if appealing to their humanity (first time offender, rail card expired very recently, being a student who’s savings would be wiped out by this) would be successful in an appeal?

Also, more realistically, would I be able to get the difference between the maximum fare (an anytime single - £108) and the fare I paid (an advanced single with RailCard discount - £33) refunded? I was too shaken up to ask at the time.

 

[yorkie]

A PF is a higher than normal fare, issued to people who make a mistake under certain circumstances.

Based on what you have said, there are no grounds for appeal (unless any technicalities apply; see previous threads for an idea).

Some people have been threatened with prosecution for doing this, rather than being treated as having made a mistake.

(Note: I am not condoning or supporting how harsh the railway is; this is just the stark reality)

 

[MotCO]

A PF is a higher than normal fare, issued to people who make a mistake under certain circumstances.

Based on what you have said, there are no grounds for appeal (unless any technicalities apply; see previous threads for an idea).

Some people have been threatened with prosecution for doing this, rather than being treated as having made a mistake.

(Note: I am not condoning or supporting how harsh the railway is; this is just the stark reality)

Did the OP get a Penalty Fare - it's not in his post unless I can't see for looking! Edit: yes - it's in the title
.
To the OP: Did the ticket inspector give you any paperwork? It may also be a good idea to renew your Railcard - it is good optics.

 

[refluentsquid]

Did the OP get a Penalty Fare - it's not in his post unless I can't see for looking!

To the OP: Did the ticket inspector give you any paperwork? It may also be a good idea to renew your Railcard - it is good optics.

Yes a PF. I have renewed it now.

 

[Gloster]

If you received any paperwork, please post it in this thread. Please obscure your name, address and any other identifying details, such as reference numbers.

As to appealing to their humanity: they ain’t got any.

 

[refluentsquid]

If you received any paperwork, please post it in this thread. Please obscure your name, address and any other identifying details, such as reference numbers.

As to appealing to their humanity: they ain’t got any.

See attached - I kinda hoped that they would have some humanity but guess that they get a lot of chancers

 

[furlong]

Please post the rest of the notice too - the bottom part is cut out of the image.

 

[refluentsquid]

See attached - sorry super long - hope it’s uploaded right!

 

[gray1404]

Which service were you on and where was the train on its journey at the point you were stopped by the inspector?

 

[refluentsquid]

Which service were you on and where was the train on its journey at the point you were stopped by the inspector?

It was 6:35 St Panc to Leics. Literally was within the first 10 minutes of travel.

Annoyingly someone had tried to travel with an off peak ticket and the same inspector let them off with paying for a new ticket (no fine).

 

[WesternLancer]

It was 6:35 St Panc to Leics. Literally was within the first 10 minutes of travel.

Annoyingly someone had tried to travel with an off peak ticket and the same inspector let them off with paying for a new ticket (no fine).

They do seem to treat railcard misuse / abuse (as they see it) differently.

Assume you know that prompt payment of a Penalty Fare reduces it by £50.

EMR don’t have the best timekeeping. If you are ever on trains delayed by 15 mins plus be sure to claim Delay Repay to claw back some of the costs of your mistake.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2024 ==

I’m not sure if you can refund your original ticket given you were charged for a new one. Others here will know. I don’t think that’s been answered yet.

 

[Hadders]

Annoyingly someone had tried to travel with an off peak ticket and the same inspector let them off with paying for a new ticket (no fine).

This passenger should not have been sold a new ticket.

If someone is travelling with a time-restricted ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

Unfortunately, if you use a railcard discounted ticket but are unable to present the railcard when asked to do so you are treated as if you did not hold a ticket at all.

Section 9 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel explains

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/77fuBWp62YPSrGwBP1mNQX/5f912e6484a2dc7efbad3b4ed0c9b383/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf

 

[gray1404]

It was 6:35 St Panc to Leics. Literally was within the first 10 minutes of travel.

Annoyingly someone had tried to travel with an off peak ticket and the same inspector let them off with paying for a new ticket (no fine).

Where you given the option of being issued a penalty fare only to Bedford?

 

[furlong]

Thanks for posting the rest of it.

Under the regulations:

5(2) Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must
provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged—
...
(j) a statement that the person is entitled to a receipt if they pay the penalty fare.

I don't spot that. Without it, it was not issued in accordance with the regulations and you have a straightforward appeal under 16(3)(a).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2024 ==

You should appeal on all the grounds you can - incorrect signage at your station of origin (see other threads - most stations don't site the posters correctly and don't include the required words on them), it being issued to the wrong station if that indeed happened - it MUST be issued to the next station unless you specifically ask the inspector otherwise and they agree to do this etc. (I.e. The regulations attempt to ensure that the penalty is always the minimum permissible unless you agree to pay a higher figure.)


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2024 ==

Unlike appeals under 16(3)(a) which are judged entirely on the facts (the regulations were either met or they were breached), your original proposed grounds for appeal come under 16(3)(d) where the people judging the appeal have a substantial amount of discretion but I think we would all say here that they would be unlikely to agree with you.

 

[WesternLancer]

It was 6:35 St Panc to Leics. Literally was within the first 10 minutes of travel.

Annoyingly someone had tried to travel with an off peak ticket and the same inspector let them off with paying for a new ticket (no fine).

06.35 or 18.35 train? Just to be sure

You maybe should have been given the option to get off at the trains next calling point after your ticket was checked and thus only charged the peak fare to that station, was that put to you?
Then you could potentially buy a lower cost, but valid, ticket to Leicester and get on the next train.

The next station and thus the cost of this probably depends on which train if they have different calling points.

This maybe a basis on which to appeal.

Penalty Fares experts will know if I have this correct.

 

[island]

The Penalty Fare is unquestionably invalid as:

1. It was issued for the wrong amount – it should have been issued for the fare to the next stop, namely Bedford (if 0635) or Kettering (if 1835)
2. It does not bear the mandatory wording that the person is entitled to a receipt if they pay the penalty fare.

An appeal should be lodged on the above basis.

Note that this will relieve the penalty element of £50/£100. The fare for the underlying journey will remain due with no credit allowed for the invalid ticket presented.

 

[Haywain]

This passenger should not have been sold a new ticket

They should if it was cheaper than an excess fare.

 

[AlterEgo]

Annoyingly someone had tried to travel with an off peak ticket and the same inspector let them off with paying for a new ticket (no fine).

That isn't something you can be penalty fared for.

However @island has posted two grounds on which your penalty fare can be successfully appealed. Do write up a draft of the appeal and people here can check it for sense and clarity before you submit it.

 

[185]

As to appealing to their humanity: they ain’t got any.

Several other operators deal with this by collecting the passenger's details, date of birth, home address and producing a TIR for conversion to MG11 - no discretion. I believe allowing the passenger to have a penalty fare and not digging through their previous erroneous purchases to create a prosecution... is applying humanity.