Penalty Fare

[optimuspr1me]

Hello,

Mistakenly applied the wrong railcard to a journey this week, used 16-17 rather than 17-25.

ticket inspector was a revenue officer & cautioned under civil law - was incredibly scared / shocked. He saw my ticket purchase history (I’d say 8ish times I’ve done this) & wasn’t happy. Asked for my details which I provided and he said I’d be given a fine.

I didn’t realise until I did further research the seriousness of these actions. He didn’t mention a potential court summon but given what I’ve read it looks like a likely outcome.

He also let me know I was in my rights to exit the interview there & then, which I opted for - this didn’t cause tension it was all in good faith.

Id ideally like to avoid this / settle out of court. I know legally this isn’t guaranteed but how likely is this? The trainline was GWR

Pls help, any reassurance would be greatly appreciated.. goes without saying I would never repeat this.

Thanks

 

[John R]

Welcome!

Just to clarify one point, do you actually have a railcard?

 

[Titfield]

I have copied below the initial advice (slightly tailored to your query) that @Hadders gives in response to queries such as yours.

However first your post is headed "Penalty Fare". Were you charged a penalty fare at the time? If so please post the Penalty Fare documentation you were given at the time. Please obscure (redact) any details which could identify you.

Assuming you were not issued with a Penalty Fare:

You will be sent a letter by the Train Operating Company asking for your version of the "event" which has taken place.

The letter can take time to arrive (typically 2 or 3 weeks but it can be longer) due to backlogs in processing at the Train Operating Companies investigation departments.

Your response should include the following:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare(s) and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Most Train Operating Companies (TOCs) are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company is within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court should they choose to do so. They will ask for your National Insurance Number and while legally you are not required to give them your National Insurance number if your desired outcome is keeping the matter out of court then I would do what you can to co-operate rather than wind them up.

You state that you have done this 8 times before which means that it can not be viewed as an honest mistake but a deliberate attempt at fare evasion on a number of occasions. This may change the Train Operating Companies decision which action to take.

If you are offered a settlement the amount tends to be around £150 plus the outstanding fares. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't (because a fine can only be imposed by a court as a punishment following a conviction) and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one. Fares already paid are not normally deducted from the outstanding fares to be paid but some TOCS now seem to be changing their stance on this.

If you post a copy of the letter when received and your draft reply in this thread forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

In the meantime try not to worry and make certain that you select the correct railcard discount going forward (assuming you do possess a valid railcard). If you do not have a railcard then purchase one (assuming it is appropriate for the times you travel and the fare you pay).

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello,

Mistakenly applied the wrong railcard to a journey this week, used 16-17 rather than 17-25.

ticket inspector was a revenue officer & cautioned under civil law - was incredibly scared / shocked. He saw my ticket purchase history (I’d say 8ish times I’ve done this) & wasn’t happy. Asked for my details which I provided and he said I’d be given a fine.

I didn’t realise until I did further research the seriousness of these actions. He didn’t mention a potential court summon but given what I’ve read it looks like a likely outcome.

He also let me know I was in my rights to exit the interview there & then, which I opted for - this didn’t cause tension it was all in good faith.

Id ideally like to avoid this / settle out of court. I know legally this isn’t guaranteed but how likely is this? The trainline was GWR

Pls help, any reassurance would be greatly appreciated.. goes without saying I would never repeat this.

Thanks

to add to other questions - Assume you gave a correct name and address before you exited the interview?

IIRC, GWR are usually quite open to settlements out of court so if you co-operate with them I suspect a good chance of you achieving that.

Whilst you are waiting to hear from them I would:

- check your own ticket purchase records and list out (but don't post here) the number of journeys where you have applied the wrong Railcard discount / any discount to which you were not entitled to any ticket purchases. This will help you know if their records tally with your own.
- read the GWR revenue protection policy from their website (note esp p11&12)

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/revenue-protection-policy/GWR-Revenue-Protection-Policy-January-2023.pdf

When you hear from them head back here for further advice as required.

 

[optimuspr1me]

Thanks for this

Yes, I cooperated and gave the correct name & address.

Will hold tight. Is the advice generally to reply to their initial letter myself or seek a lawyers advice to aide in writing it?

I was not given a penalty fair at the time no. The RPI said it was a civil matter not a criminal matter and that I’d receive a fine.

Thanks v v much for your help so far. A long 3 weeks ahead

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2023 ==

I suppose they refer to it as a fine as that’s the intended course of action but the desired one here is an out of court settlement.

Are there any recent examples of a similar situation to this being settled out of court recently?

Naively I had no idea this carried such a penalty - which obviously doesn’t change anything

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for this

Yes, I cooperated and gave the correct name & address.

OK - so you need to watch out for hard copy post sent to you and be prepared to respond to it quickly

Will hold tight. Is the advice generally to reply to their initial letter myself or seek a lawyers advice to aide in writing it?

Advice here is usually to reply yourself - the basic guidance posted above is the approach to take. A solicitor will charge you a fair old amount, but you could use one if you wanted to pay but it's usually not necessary - unless perhaps you have a serious fare evasion record - you can always go to a solicitor for help if your own efforts to settle it out of court failed.

I was not given a penalty fair at the time no. The RPI said it was a civil matter not a criminal matter and that I’d receive a fine.

What they mean is a court fine in the event of it being taken to court and you found guilty (along with a criminal record) - your objective needs to be to avoid a court fine and record by achieving an out of court settlement before it ever goes to court.

Thanks v v much for your help so far. A long 3 weeks ahead

Might be best used to save up the funds to pay any settlement offer they may make, as the payment is usually required promptly and in full.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Mistakenly applied the wrong railcard to a journey this week, used 16-17 rather than 17-25.

A word of advice for when you reply to the latter from the train company. Don’t use the word “mistakenly” unless it was genuinely an accident that this happened. I suspect the truth is that you did it to get a bigger discount, which isn’t a mistake, more an error of judgement or something like that

 

[John R]

OK - so you need to watch out for hard copy post sent to you and be prepared to respond to it quickly


Advice here is usually to reply yourself - the basic guidance posted above is the approach to take. A solicitor will charge you a fair old amount, but you could use one if you wanted to pay but it's usually not necessary - unless perhaps you have a serious fare evasion record - you can always go to a solicitor for help if your own efforts to settle it out of court failed.


What they mean is a court fine in the event of it being taken to court and you found guilty (along with a criminal record) - your objective needs to be to avoid a court fine and record by achieving an out of court settlement before it ever goes to court.


Might be best used to save up the funds to pay any settlement offer they may make, as the payment is usually required promptly and in full.

And worth noting that the amount requested as a settlement offer could be the full single fare for each journey taken, with no offset for what youve already paid. That might seem draconian, but ultimately it’s an offer to keep it out of court, and there is a penal element to it.

 

[optimuspr1me]

Again, thanks very much all for your prompt help.

Also noted re wording: good to know thank you!

Agreed, the number 1 objective is to keep this out of court. To pay each ticket in full is totally doable and can be done asap.

Do we have an approx guess for the £ an out of court settlement would be? Are we thinking hundreds, thousands?

I’d estimate that the full price of the 8 fairs would be £80 but obviously willing to pay admin fees and whatever else on top.

 

[John R]

If you’ve estimated correctly (ie two full undiscounted single fares for each return journey) then add 150ish should give you a good ballpark of the amount you might have to pay.

 

[WesternLancer]

Again, thanks very much all for your prompt help.

Also noted re wording: good to know thank you!

Agreed, the number 1 objective is to keep this out of court. To pay each ticket in full is totally doable and can be done asap.

Do we have an approx guess for the £ an out of court settlement would be? Are we thinking hundreds, thousands?

I’d estimate that the full price of the 8 fairs would be £80 but obviously willing to pay admin fees and whatever else on top.

To get your fares you can look up the price of an Anytime single between the 2 stations concerned on any rail fare ticket site or this fares data base

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

The Anytime fare is a full adult rate undiscounted peak time ticket price - they can be more expensive than you may think, depending on the length of the journey of course. But unless you have done lots of trips with the wrong ticket you are not looking at £1000s to settle with them.

 

[transportphoto]

ticket inspector was a revenue officer & cautioned under civil law

The RPI said it was a civil matter not a criminal matter and that I’d receive a fine.

I’m not overly convinced here. This has very much potential to be a criminal matter.

Was the caution along the lines of “You do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence…”?

If referred to court, matters such as these are most often taken as criminal proceedings via the Magistrates Court.

The possibility of settling outside of court would be the civil matter.

 

[optimuspr1me]

Hello,

Yep, I was read my rights. From the research I’ve done I think with this sort of situation one is always read rights if a fine is going to be issued with the intention of it ending up in court.

It’s then down to me to write to the company and try and settle out of court. Unsure as to why the RPI said it was a civil matter in that case though?

Also: I booked these journeys on the trainline app, but not signed in. Are they still traceable?

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Just to add and try to help with the understanding:

A fine can only be imposed by the courts.
A penalty fare or settlement offer may seem like a fine (often referred to as such too) but they aren’t. (Penalty fare is irrelevant here as you have been reported)
Your initial letter will probably be very similar to others that get posted on here and roughly along the lines of:

On XYZ date at ZYX time you were spoken to regarding an incident and we are considering this matter for prosecution…we would like your version of events…please respond by completing the attached sheet.

When this letter arrives it would be advisable to post on here, with any personal details and reference numbers redacted, when considering your response it would be very advisable to follow the advice given here and look at some of the posts from @Hadders, once you have a draft come back to the forum with it and let the experts here have a read over and offer any advice/amendments before submitting. There would be no harm in starting your draft beforehand, including any mitigation and actions you have taken to prevent this issue occurring in future but, wait for the letter to arrive before sending anything off.

As others have mentioned above, time is a key factor here and even waiting an extra day can mean you time out on any offers to resolve this civilly rather than going before a court.

Hope that helps

 

[swt_passenger]

Hello,

Yep, I was read my rights. From the research I’ve done I think with this sort of situation one is always read rights if a fine is going to be issued with the intention of it ending up in court.

It’s then down to me to write to the company and try and settle out of court. Unsure as to why the RPI said it was a civil matter in that case though?

Also: I booked these journeys on the trainline app, but not signed in. Are they still traceable?

A revenue inspector does not really ever ‘issue a fine’, he will either issue you a penalty fare, or if that’s not appropriate he reports you to his office for them to take action. It is them who will decide whether to offer an administrative settlement or to proceed to court, that will depend a lot on your response when it is asked for.

I agree with you and others him mentioning it being a “civil matter” is misleading, but it seems to happen a lot. I suspect it’s a de-escalation tactic, but I doubt it affects anything though.

 

[WesternLancer]

Also: I booked these journeys on the trainline app, but not signed in. Are they still traceable?

Bound to be - every fare dodger out there would be not signed in if it was that easy. Traceable through your payment method details I'd expect. Digital finger print.

I don't think you have answered the question posed earlier on (tho you may not wish to in which case ignore this post) - but did you actually have any sort of valid Railcard - correct for your age? ie have you been:

a) buying tickets with the wrong Railcard discount, but have a railcard
or
b) buying tickets with a railcard discount that due to your age you are not entitled to, and also do not have any Railcard at all.

That still may not prevent you being able to reach a settlement however.

 

[furlong]

The correct terminology can be confusing. Maybe one day this forum might write a little FAQ instead of repeating similar information on lots of threads!

You titled this thread 'Penalty Fare' - but it doesn't sound as though anyone is trying to impose a penalty on you at this stage.

Confusion might have arisen if the inspector was trying to tell you that if you voluntarily pay up everything you owe they won't waste their time prosecuting you.

If you reach a settlement with GWR, you would only be paying them back money that was properly due to them under the contract formed every time you chose to travel plus an amount that (they claim) is needed to pay for the extra costs of having to deal with you. That's not officially considered to be a penalty - it's just putting right the wrongs caused by what happened.

If they can't reach agreement with you, they retain the option of prosecuting you and asking a court to fine you and to force you to pay them compensation. Usually this costs you a lot more. But they are motivated to settle because with limited staff, the fewer hours spent on each case, the more cases they can investigate - and unfortunately there's still no shortage of people to catch not paying their fare!

 

[optimuspr1me]

Again thank you!

To be clear I have a 16-25 railcard

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2023 ==

Sorry *18-25

 

[Haywain]

Sorry *18-25

No, 16-25.

 

[Hadders]

Just too add to the advice already given.

There’s no need to involve a lawyer at this stage. GWR are usually one of the more pragmatic companies to deal with when it comes to this sort of thing, as long as you co-operate with them. If you don’t get a favourable response to your reply to their letter then this is the time to consider involving a lawyer.

GWR will be able to research your ticket online ticket purchasing history, regardless of whether or not you’re logged in at the time of purchase.

 

[WesternLancer]

Again thank you!

To be clear I have a 16-25 railcard

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2023 ==

Sorry *18-25

Thanks - that's good to know - they will probably think that you selected the 16-17 discount due to it's higher discount rate compared with the 16-25 Railcard discount, but if that was a genuine error/mistake you can say that - although if you did it deliberately, as mentioned up thread better to use a different form of words like 'I am sorry for this error / error of judgment'.

 

[optimuspr1me]

Thanks again all

I will of course be keeping a close eye for that hard copy letter!

Side note; this forum is a great resource. Thank you.

 

[Hadders]

Side note; this forum is a great resource. Thank you.

You're welcome! We do pride ourselves on the quality of the advice we give.