Penalty Fare

[wmh980106]

Hi,

I have a question about a penalty fare I received and whether anyone thinks this will be successful, I arrived at the train station yesterday with a minute to go before my train left, as I always buy anytime singles for this route I thought I would be fine to just buy a ticket on my phone when I got on the train, unfortunately there was poor phone signal on this train so it took me over 10 mins to purchase a ticket. Once this was done a revenue officer got on about 5 mins later scanned my ticket and said that it was not valid, and gave me a penalty fare notice. I have since appealed this giving evidence of my purchased ticket, and explaining what had happened, would someone be able to give me an idea about whether they think this appeal will be successful?

 

[furlong]

Why was it not valid? Perhaps you can provide copies of the paperwork (with personal details covered up)?
Was it a proper 'e-ticket' - not one that has to be collected from a ticket machine at the station?

A Penalty Fare cannot be issued if you present a valid ticket at the time of inspection. Merely buying it after boarding the train doesn't make it invalid - it's no different from buying one from a conductor on board.

Separately there is a byelaw that says you mustn't board without a valid ticket if there were facilities to buy one, so you open yourself up to prosecution by doing this, but not a Penalty Fare. It would be essentially pointless to take action after the right ticket has been bought though.

To have the best chance with an appeal you should formulate it in terms of the relevant parts of the Penalty Fare regulations, which you should quote.

 

[Hadders]

Legally you must be in possession of a valid ticket before you board the train, unless there aren't any ticket issuing facilities at your starting station that accept your chosen methof of payment.

Where did you start your journey? Was there an open ticket office or working ticket machine at the station. If there was then you broke the law boarding the train without a ticket and the issuing of a Penalty Fare is an appropriate course of action.

If the ticket machine doesn't accept cash, and you wished to pay with cash, then you can board the train and purchase on board or at your destination. On some routes you have to obtaina 'Promise to Pay' voucher but that doesn't seem to apply in your case because you didn't pay with cash.

 

[some bloke]

Did you buy a ticket choosing a later train, and do the retailer's terms and conditions say or imply that a ticket is invalid if bought for a later train/bought after the train you take departs?

 

[island]

Tickets must be held when you get onto the train, not later (unless the starting station has no working ticketing facilities).

 

[wmh980106]

Legally you must be in possession of a valid ticket before you board the train, unless there aren't any ticket issuing facilities at your starting station that accept your chosen methof of payment.

Where did you start your journey? Was there an open ticket office or working ticket machine at the station. If there was then you broke the law boarding the train without a ticket and the issuing of a Penalty Fare is an appropriate course of action.

If the ticket machine doesn't accept cash, and you wished to pay with cash, then you can board the train and purchase on board or at your destination. On some routes you have to obtaina 'Promise to Pay' voucher but that doesn't seem to apply in your case because you didn't pay with cash.

It is in Longbridge, there is a ticket office however the shutter was down when I walked in to the station, no member of staff was present, as far as I’m aware they don’t have any ticket machines at this station I have never seen them.

 

[Wallsendmag]

A Ticket Vending Machine is located in the booking hall.

 

[wmh980106]

Did you buy a ticket choosing a later train, and do the retailer's terms and conditions say or imply that a ticket is invalid if bought for a later train/bought after the train you take departs?

I did buy a ticket using a later train, however it was an anytime day single which states that I can board any train on that day with the ticket. So I don’t understand how it could be classed as invalid even though I bought it afterwards.

 

[island]

I did buy a ticket using a later train, however it was an anytime day single which states that I can board any train on that day with the ticket. So I don’t understand how it could be classed as invalid even though I bought it afterwards.

The time at which you must have a valid ticket is when you step onto the train.

 

[Hadders]

Discussion on issuing Penalty Fares when a ticket is purchased after the train departs has been split into a separate thread, as much of the discussion is unhelpful to the OP:

Discussion on Legality of Penalty Fares when ticket is purchased after train departs

The time at which you must have a valid ticket is when you step onto the train. But is that grounds to issue a penalty fare?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[island]

In this case, the passenger has committed, at least, a Railway byelaw offence for joining a train without a ticket at a station with available ticketing facilities.

It appears the passenger has already appealed; the train company would have the option to cancel the penalty fare and prosecute instead, which would be a more sizeable cost for the passenger.

It might have been wisest to take this one on the chin, pay the penalty fare notwithstanding that it appears to have been incorrectly issued, and buy before boarding in the future. But if the appeal is resolved, whether or not in favour of the passenger, any prosecution will be barred.

 

[185143]

I do think there should be discretion in cases like this. Someone who boarded the 12:00, purchased at 12:01 and gets gripped at 12:30 (for example) had honest intentions, even if strictly guilty.

Someone who boarded at 12:00, purchased at 12:25 and gets gripped at 12:30, less so.

 

[island]

There has to be a cutoff, though. 12:01 is OK and 12:25 not? How about 12:02? 12:05? 12:10? 12:24?