Penalty fare

[Lisah333]

Hi I’m looking for some advice please.I have recieved a pfn in the post in my sons name.My son who is 16 is actively being criminally exploited,he is autistic,adhd,and has learning and communication difficulties.At the moment we aren’t sure why he was taken to barnsley,and he recieved this pfn on the return to Leeds.He was told by the person/s he was with that they had payed his ticket.At Leeds station he had said that he needed to speak to his mum to help him but he said they just demanded his details,he can’t make eye contact and face to face communication so I’m guessing he struggled and the person issuing the ticket thought he was rude.My son has a social worker and his ehcp states that he can’t safely and reliably get to and from destinations.
By the way on the day and time this ticket was issued I was actively searching for my son as he was missing.He has never been on a train before so I’m really shocked at this.The pfn is for £60 and I just can’t afford it,it will really put me into hardship and we are in crisis at the moment.I just don’t know what to do.Do you think I have a chance if I appeal? I understand the importance of ticket evasion and I think it would have been fair to issue a unpaid fare notice rather than pfn.Any advice please?

 

[L401CJF]

Others will be along shortly to give advice, but I believe it is best to appeal the PFN regardless as this bars them from prosecuting I believe.

 

[occone]

Hi there and welcome. I'm really sorry to hear about the situation you describe, it sounds awful.

I think your best bet is to appeal, email the train comany who issued the penalty, explaining the situation and, if you're comfortable with it, perhaps ask someone from the police/social services who is familiar with the case to write you a letter explaining what's happening with your son. That way the train company will hopefully show some empathy with proof of what is happening. It would be incredibly cold hearted for a train operating company to persue the fine after being authoratitively told about what's happening.

If that doesn't work, keep asking back here as folk may have more of a handle around specific legislation that you can use.

Wishing you and your son the best through this and hope things get better soon.

 

[furlong]

Obviously you appeal citing Regulation 16(1)(d) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/16

(3) The grounds on which an appeal under this regulation may be made are that—
...
(d)there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

But I'd also suggest making immediate contact with the train or station operator - or even perhaps the transport police (non-emergency) - and ask them to try to use CCTV to ascertain the sequence of what happened if you're suggesting another person might have been involved with coercion etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2023 ==

But can you also check exactly what the paperwork says on it - it might not be a proper "Penalty Fare" covered by those regulations. It might be something similar but different. Perhaps upload a photo with identifying details covered up?

 

[island]

Penalty fares aren't issued in the post, they are only issued by handing them to the passenger at the time. Can you please post up a copy of what you received (covering any personal details) so we can advise.

 

[scrapy]

Penalty fares aren't issued in the post, they are only issued by handing them to the passenger at the time. Can you please post up a copy of what you received (covering any personal details) so we can advise.

Agreed, we also need to know what journey was actually made by train. You mention Leeds and Barnsley, you also say that your not sure why he was taken to Barnsley, was he taken there by someone? Or get on wrong train by mistake?

Was the penalty issued for not having a ticket? or for having an invalid ticket? or possibly not having a Railcard? Does your son have any form of local authority travel pass that could be used for that journey or part of it? If so did he make the inspector aware of this? Did his disability prevent him from purchasing a ticket at his origin?Did he make the inspector aware of his disability?

These are things we need to know to advise of the best course of action.

When you say criminally exploited, do you mean somebody is taking advantage of him for criminal means and that's why he ended up in Barnsley with no means to pay the fare? Or are you accusing Northern of taking advantage to obtain a higher fare than a walk-up one? If it's the first one I suggest you go to the police.

 

[Lisah333]

Agreed, we also need to know what journey was actually made by train. You mention Leeds and Barnsley, you also say that your not sure why he was taken to Barnsley, was he taken there by someone? Or get on wrong train by mistake?

Was the penalty issued for not having a ticket? or for having an invalid ticket? or possibly not having a Railcard? Does your son have any form of local authority travel pass that could be used for that journey or part of it? If so did he make the inspector aware of this? Did his disability prevent him from purchasing a ticket at his origin?Did he make the inspector aware of his disability?

These are things we need to know to advise of the best course of action.

When you say criminally exploited, do you mean somebody is taking advantage of him for criminal means and that's why he ended up in Barnsley with no means to pay the fare? Or are you accusing Northern of taking advantage to obtain a higher fare than a walk-up one? If it's the first one I suggest you go to the police.

Like I posted the journey was from Barnsley to Leeds as I don’t know how or why my son was taken to Barnsley.He did not get the wrong train,or the wrong ticket or railcard.It was for not having a ticket but the person or persons he was with told him they had his ticket.He struggles with communication so he did not say anything to anyone apart from I need to speak to my mum.Yes criminally exploited means that he is being exploited and taken advantage of for someone else’s means and benefit,and obviously the police are aware aswell as his social worker but no crime has been committed.Believe me I’m fighting this everyday.I’m not accusing northern rail of anything but in this instance they will probably have realised that he couldn’t make communication,eye contact etc and he asked for someone to ring me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2023 ==

Penalty fares aren't issued in the post, they are only issued by handing them to the passenger at the time. Can you please post up a copy of what you received (covering any personal details) so we can advise.

Hi yes il post what I have recieved once I’m home.I got a letter through the post and it’s the first I was aware of it.I have had to go through his bedroom and pockets to find a slip of paper that he should have given to me but he didn’t understand what it was for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2023 ==

Obviously you appeal citing Regulation 16(1)(d) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/16


But I'd also suggest making immediate contact with the train or station operator - or even perhaps the transport police (non-emergency) - and ask them to try to use CCTV to ascertain the sequence of what happened if you're suggesting another person might have been involved with coercion etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2023 ==

But can you also check exactly what the paperwork says on it - it might not be a proper "Penalty Fare" covered by those regulations. It might be something similar but different. Perhaps upload a photo with identifying details covered up?

Hi yes il post up the info on paper that I have.My son has a allocated criminal exploitation police officer that works with him but they say a crime hasn’t been committed because he voluntarily went with them,but his disabilities make him extremely vulnerable,so I and his social worker do a lot of work around trying to make him aware of this.It’s so hard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2023 ==

Hi there and welcome. I'm really sorry to hear about the situation you describe, it sounds awful.

I think your best bet is to appeal, email the train comany who issued the penalty, explaining the situation and, if you're comfortable with it, perhaps ask someone from the police/social services who is familiar with the case to write you a letter explaining what's happening with your son. That way the train company will hopefully show some empathy with proof of what is happening. It would be incredibly cold hearted for a train operating company to persue the fine after being authoratitively told about what's happening.

If that doesn't work, keep asking back here as folk may have more of a handle around specific legislation that you can use.

Wishing you and your son the best through this and hope things get better soon.

Thanks for them kind words and understanding.It’s so hard to deal with.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2023 ==

Hi this is the info I have.
A few have asked me

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks for sharing the paperwork with us. This confirms that this is a penalty fare (sorry for checking this point in detail - lots of people talk about a 'penalty fare' when it actually turns out they've been charged something else!) and as has been explained, your son has the right to appeal against this. As your son is under 18, you can appeal on his behalf.

I think that the right procedure is to to write to Northern at the address on the reminder letter. Explain that
- you are appealing against the penalty fare (include the reference on the letter)
- you are writing on behalf of your son as he is under 18
- as @furlong suggested, that you are appealing under Regulation 16(1)(d) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 (that 'there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.')
- explain what the compelling reasons are: essentially tell Northern what you told us in your first post. If you can, enclose a copy (not the original) of any documents which prove your son's health condition.

Essentially, you're asking Northern to recognise your son's problems. So wrote to them courteously and hopefully they will show a little bit of common sense and withdraw the penalty fare.

 

[Lisah333]

Thanks for sharing the paperwork with us. This confirms that this is a penalty fare (sorry for checking this point in detail - lots of people talk about a 'penalty fare' when it actually turns out they've been charged something else!) and as has been explained, your son has the right to appeal against this. As your son is under 18, you can appeal on his behalf.

I think that the right procedure is to to write to Northern at the address on the reminder letter. Explain that
- you are appealing against the penalty fare (include the reference on the letter)
- you are writing on behalf of your son as he is under 18
- as @furlong suggested, that you are appealing under Regulation 16(1)(d) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 (that 'there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.')
- explain what the compelling reasons are: essentially tell Northern what you told us in your first post. If you can, enclose a copy (not the original) of any documents which prove your son's health condition.

Essentially, you're asking Northern to recognise your son's problems. So wrote to them courteously and hopefully they will show a little bit of common sense and withdraw the penalty fare.

Thank you,for your advice and for being kind.I will put this in writing to them and just pray for lenience and let me pay what the fare should have been.

 

[Elecman]

Thank you,for your advice and for being kind.I will put this in writing to them and just pray for lenience and let me pay what the fare should have been.

Please post a draft of you appeal here before you submit it (suitably redacted for personal information) then the knowledgable members may be able to suggest suitable tweaks to maximise your chances of success it

 

[scrapy]

Whilst I feel the penalty fare was issued correctly, because of the exceptional circumstances I would hope it's cancelled, you may have to go through to the final stage of appeal, where extenuating circumstances are looked at.

It may also be useful to contact Northerns' Debt Recovery and Prosecutions unit with an explanation of what's happened and proof that the police are involved, maybe a crime reference number if you have one and a letter from your son's explaining your son's disability and the circumstances, as to why he was in Barnsley and offer to pay the fare for the journey made, as this is presumably still due. (Email is drpu@northernrailway.co.uk) and ask if the penalty can be cancelled.