penalty fare: what to do when it all goes wrong

[cameron123]

I was taken to court and found guilty in my absence of Fare Evasion on a Southeastern train. (To be clear, I had boarded a train without my wallet.)

I believe an administrative error led to a court summons rather than allowing the fine to be paid, as they say I did not reply to their letter before the court summons, which I did, and have evidence of doing.

Now I have a criminal record and had to pay £500.

Question 1: I was not advised that I could appeal my conviction within 21 days. Would it still be possible to appeal my conviction after this?

Question 2: Can I take Southeastern to court for damages?

I have tried to resolve the problem with Southeastern and they refuse to open reasonable communications. I have also successfully requested Passenger Focus and my local MP to attempt communication, but they have also been unable to get a reasonable response. Instead, they suggest that I take Southeastern to the small claims court. However, this will not dissolve the criminal record.

There does not seem to be any ombudsman that will take this matter seriously, although it evidently is.

If anyone can offer helpful advice it would be appreciated, as at this point I do not know what to do.

 

[bb21]

Do you mean you did not receive the court summons letter?

 

[LexyBoy]

I believe an administrative error led to a court summons rather than allowing the fine to be paid, as they say I did not reply to their letter before the court summons, which I did, and have evidence of doing.

Were you issued a Penalty Fare on the train, or were your details taken under caution?

You say that you replied to their letter - what was this letter, and what was in your reply? Were you asked for your version of events, and did Southeastern offer the chance to settle out of court?

 

[cameron123]

BB21: No. I they say they did not receive my reply which means that they had to take me to court.

But I did send a reply to their notice of procession and wanted to negotiate a settlement out of court.

 

[island]

I don't think they are obliged to respond to an offer to settle out of court.

 

[bb21]

BB21: No. I they say they did not receive my reply which means that they had to take me to court.

But I did send a reply to their notice of procession and wanted to negotiate a settlement out of court.

So did you receive a court summons letter? What did you do when you received it if so?

 

[cameron123]

LexyBoy: I gave my details under caution because I couldn't pay the on-the-spot fine.

The letter pretty much stated all the above. i.e. "Reply to the notice of prosecution letter, give your version of events -or be taken to court without further notice."

I replied with an in-depth recollection of the events, which are again pretty much as I described above. And from what I can see, they have fined customers for much lesser mistakes. So I'm not arguing the case. Just that I would have paid the fine (preferably the fare) instead of being taken to court. But I was denied that opportunity because of an administration error, in that southeastern took me to court without proper communication.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think they are obliged to respond to an offer to settle out of court.

From all the documents I have read on the prosecution protocol, the company must allow the customer to appeal the fine.

Because I was not offered any feedback from my appeal and that they stated that I did not reply to they notice of prosecution letter. It leads me to think that they are obligated to respond, and failed to.

 

[Wath Yard]

You boarded a train without a ticket and without the means to pay. You would have preferred to just pay the fare at a later date - I'm sure you would but that isn't how it works.

As you have already been convicted then your best option is to consult a lawyer, or the CAB if you don't have the means to pay. Did PF and your MP suggest on what grounds you could make a claim in the small claims court?

If you were aware of the court case then you could have presented this evidence to the court. Did you do so, even though you didn't attend?

 

[Monty]

I think you getting confused here, you have 21 days to appeal against a penalty fare, which is not a fine. I appreciate to you there does not seem to be much of a difference but in legal terms there is, only a court can impose a fine. You said so yourself you were questioned under caution, with this in mind I believe it was always the RPI's intention to report you to prosecutions. Had you been issued a penalty fare you would have been given a notice with all the relevent infomation on it regarding paying/appealing.

By the looks of it South Eastern have decided to have you prosecuted under section 5 3a of the Regulation of the Railways Act 1889. They are under no obligation to neogitate an out of court settlement nor are they required to correspond with you after the case has been settled. You could try to appeal against your conviction, but if I remember correctly it means a visit to a crown court and your case is heard in front of a judge.

 

[island]

I can't add much to what Monty said. You don't appear to have been issued a Penalty Fare in this case; they have gone straight to prosecution as you had no means to pay, which is (to Southeastern) a pretty clear indicator that you intended to avoid paying. A Penalty Fare is technically not an on-the-spot fine (nor any other kind of fine).

I think you need to be honest with yourself here and ask yourself whether there were letters that you ignored in the hope the matter would "go away". I notice you've not answered bb21 who asked the same question twice — you're not of course obliged to say anything if you don't want to, but people may draw conclusions.

As mentioned above, at this stage in proceedings your one and only way to be rid of the criminal conviction and fine is to appeal to the Crown Court, and for this you will need a solicitor.

 

[maniacmartin]

In addition to bb21's question regarding whether you received a court summons:

What evidence do you have that you wrote to SET?
If you did receive a summons, why did you decide to not attend court?

 

[Sidious]

This is a crucial question which has now been asked several times and you have not answered:

Did you receive the court summons?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Its true that the question "did you receive a Summons?" has been asked four times with no reply, but I read the OP's first post to imply that a Summons to Court WAS received but that they did not attend the Court, did not instruct anyone to represent them in Court, and did not respond with a written Plea (all of which would probably have been included with the Summons as options of how the Summons can be dealt with).

If that interpretation is correct, then it is hard to understand what the "administrative error" is that "led to a court summons" when the time and place to challenge it has been and gone.
Its also hard to understand what the consequence of that challenge might be, as the crucial matter is the Offence of travelling without a valid ticket or non payment of a debt (or whatever the actual Offence was) and the OP hasn't given us a reason to imagine that the Court made the wrong decision.

Yes, a Court could be asked to hear an Appeal, but there had better be substantial grounds for the Appeal, such as new Evidence or an error in Law. As the OP perhaps admitted to the Offence in a Statement (a copy of which might have been served with the Summons) then it is also hard to understand why a Court would overturn the Conviction on Appeal.

I think we need a lot more relevant information to provide any reply which might assist.

 

[Sidious]

Yes, a Court could be asked to hear an Appeal, but there had better be substantial grounds for the Appeal, such as new Evidence or an error in Law. As the OP perhaps admitted to the Offence in a Statement (a copy of which might have been served with the Summons) then it is also hard to understand why a Court would overturn the Conviction on Appeal.

I think we need a lot more relevant information to provide any reply which might assist.

Indeed. Grounds to appeal a summary conviction are not required after a hearing in the Magistrate's Court, and there is scope to appeal either conviction and/or sentence, however the OP should be aware that the costs likely to be awarded against him would be very substantial if either appeal fails at Crown Court. There would need to be significant evidence which he isn't telling us about because on face value the offence appears to be complete.

If the OP knew nothing about the hearing and the summons was not received then there would be grounds to make a statutory declaration to a Magistrate, which would effectively null the conviction and the whole process would start again. It would however appear that the summons has been received, and the OP has stuck his head in the sand and ignored it, in which case he should think himself lucky that they only tried him in absence and didn't issue a warrant for his arrest for non-appearance at court.

Unless the OP gives more information, as you say it is difficult to advise.

 

[Ferret]

Indeed. Grounds to appeal a summary conviction are not required after a hearing in the Magistrate's Court, and there is scope to appeal either conviction and/or sentence, however the OP should be aware that the costs likely to be awarded against him would be very substantial if either appeal fails at Crown Court. There would need to be significant evidence which he isn't telling us about because on face value the offence appears to be complete.

If the OP knew nothing about the hearing and the summons was not received then there would be grounds to make a statutory declaration to a Magistrate, which would effectively null the conviction and the whole process would start again. It would however appear that the summons has been received, and the OP has stuck his head in the sand and ignored it, in which case he should think himself lucky that they only tried him in absence and didn't issue a warrant for his arrest for non-appearance at court.

Unless the OP gives more information, as you say it is difficult to advise.

This was what I imagined was most likely too - OP buried head in the sand, and only when the full consequences were realised did the OP look to do something about it.

My own thoughts are that this was a Regulation of Railways Act prosection covering intent to avoid the fare. I imagine that the interview under caution was very incriminating and the case lasted just a few minutes in the Magistrates Court. Furthermore, the experience of some of my colleagues suggests the fine was greater because the OP did not attend Court. I'd argue that unless there is some pretty compelling evidence that the OP can offer to counter an incriminating MG11 from the RPI, that the goose has been well and truly cooked, so to speak, and there is nothing that can be done at this stage, unless the OP wishes to throw yet more money down the drain on a fruitless appeal.

Of course, I'm working on assumptions here based on probabilities, as the OP hasn't provided us with the whole story.

 

[Chapeltom]

wow. That was an onslaught of OP bashing. I'm not sure I really want to continue this thread after that. It's enough to make my blood boil. Please, If you wouldn't talk to people in the street like that them don't leave such rude replies to someone's thread. I'm only asking for information. If you don't have the information then you need not reply, especially if its just to state the obvious and rub salt.

All the information is in my first message. Any other information is just unhelpful gossip. So if you can't help. Go and **** on some other guys thread will you, and leave this one for actual advice to the two questions asked.

This is the best forum around for advice on railway matters, you'll not find best elsewhere, there are some really knowledgeable people on here and so I think your attitude towards the posters stinks. Your response here is totally unjustified and probably sums up the whole case. You were asked questions by members, you ignored them and now accuse this forum of making gossip? Hmm...

People need to ask additional questions to give advice to your initial two questions and you refuse to answer.

 

[cameron123]

... People cannot give advice without adequate information.

I was taken to court and found guilty in my absence of Fare Evasion on a Southeastern train. (To be clear, I had boarded a train without my wallet.)

I believe an administrative error led to a court summons rather than allowing the fine to be paid, as they say I did not reply to their letter before the court summons, which I did, and have evidence of doing.

Now I have a criminal record and had to pay £500.

Question 1: I was not advised that I could appeal my conviction within 21 days. Would it still be possible to appeal my conviction after this?

Question 2: Can I take Southeastern to court for damages?

I have tried to resolve the problem with Southeastern and they refuse to open reasonable communications. I have also successfully requested Passenger Focus and my local MP to attempt communication, but they have also been unable to get a reasonable response. Instead, they suggest that I take Southeastern to the small claims court. However, this will not dissolve the criminal record.

There does not seem to be any ombudsman that will take this matter seriously, although it evidently is.

If anyone can offer helpful advice it would be appreciated, as at this point I do not know what to do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you mean you did not receive the court summons letter?

Yes. Though I was unable to attend.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As you have already been convicted then your best option is to consult a lawyer, or the CAB if you don't have the means to pay. Did PF and your MP suggest on what grounds you could make a claim in the small claims court?

If you were aware of the court case then you could have presented this evidence to the court. Did you do so, even though you didn't attend?

When I was summons to court the only information I had was the statement that the Transport Officer had written. I didn't know what the outcome of my appeal letter was, and I couldn't find any information on what I have actually done (please don't say "boarded a train without a ticket") as to how I was going to defend myself. I also didn't know how to defend myself.

In the end a was unable to attend the court and being naive to the situation and did not appreciate I was defending myself in a criminal court and not a small claims court.

But this is all besides the point because I'm trying to find out how to get Southeaster accept mishandling the case before court, without me having to take them to the small claims court.

 

[Ferret]

It is not my intention to indulge in OP bashing. However, I'll call things as I see it - there's no point in creating false hope that there can be any prospect of success.

The last post made by the OP raises a further question though - having chosen not to attend, why did you not appoint a Solicitor to attend? And if you thought that the summons should not have been issued, why did you not seek to deal with it there and then, rather than after you've been convicted in absentia.

The problem you face as far as I can see, is that usually an interview under caution follows onto an MG11 form (in essence a witness statement) written up by the Revenue Protection Inspector. SET write to you and ask for your version of events, and if/when you respond, they decide what to do. Now, regardless of what you write in response, they may well consider that they have enough evidence to prosecute. Remember, they are not obliged to settle out of Court with anyone. That will be at the discretion of their prosecution department.

I think that to have any prospect of success with an appeal, you'd have to show compelling evidence that counters whatever the Court heard in that MG11 form. It sounds like you travelled without a ticket or the means to pay for one - which is pretty open and shut intent to avoid the fare so far as the law is concerned.

I think that if you'd attempted to deal with this earlier, we may well have been able to assist you in securing an out of Court settlement, but now you've left it so long - having now been convicted, I can't see a realistic avenue that is open to you. I can understand this isn't what you want to hear, but it would be poor behaviour by me to offer hope when there appears to be none.

 

[cameron123]

I think you getting confused here, you have 21 days to appeal against a penalty fare, which is not a fine.

No... Appeals from the Magistrates court

"Notice of appeal must be given to the court and to the prosecutor within 21 days of the conclusion of your case. You can apply for Representation for the appeal."
http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourri...peals/appeals-from-the-magistrates-court.html
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

By the looks of it South Eastern have decided to have you prosecuted under section 5 3a of the Regulation of the Railways Act 1889. They are under no obligation to neogitate an out of court settlement nor are they required to correspond with you after the case has been settled.

Are you sure? Can you point me to an information source, please?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you need to be honest with yourself here and ask yourself whether there were letters that you ignored in the hope the matter would "go away". I notice you've not answered bb21 who asked the same question twice — you're not of course obliged to say anything if you don't want to, but people may draw conclusions.

Like I stated initially, I replied and have proof that.

 

[34D]

As you knew about the date for your appearance (and did nothing about it, ie apply for a postponement, etc) and as there have been more than 21 days since the court date then I would say there is nothing you can do.

SouthEastern have NOT made an error. They can jump straight to prosecution if they wish to, without sending letters or reading letters from you at all.

Your only hope would be a polite letter to SouthEastern HQ asking if they will exercise discretion towards you - they aren't obliged to.

Was there a good reason why you ignored things though?

At a push you could try to make a Stat Dec on the basis that you were under the impression that your sending correspondence to the Prosecutor would halt proceedings, but I'd wait for other opinions on this first. Also, I'm not exactly sure what words to put in your statement of truth, as "I did not know about the proceedings against me" would be a lie.

Can you confirm that the offence against you mentions section 5(3) of the Regulation of Railways Act? If so, you now have a criminal record, and will be unable to enter countries such as America.

Finally, I believe an apology is due to the VOLUNTEER MEMBERS of this forum who have helped you. Its not their fault that the advice isn't what you want to hear.

 

[Ferret]

Are you sure? Can you point me to an information source, please?

Your own post states you received a criminal record. The only railway ticketing offence that matches what you've told us is the Regulation of Railways Act offence. The level of fine is about right too. If you still have the Court Summons, it should tell you on there exactly what offence you were being prosecuted for I'd imagine.

 

[bb21]

Question 1: I was not advised that I could appeal my conviction within 21 days. Would it still be possible to appeal my conviction after this?

Since you are aware of your court date and received your summons letter but chose not to attend, the answer is "no". Ask yourself this, on what grounds do you expect an exception to be made?

Question 2: Can I take Southeastern to court for damages?

For what? What "administrative error" did they make?

SouthEastern are not obliged to enter into correspondence if they do not wish to. They have no obligation to accept any offer of settlement if they do not wish to.

You received the summons letter so you are fully aware of the offence you were being prosecuted under. No error has been made from SouthEastern's part.

 

[cameron123]

...If that interpretation is correct, then it is hard to understand what the "administrative error" is that "led to a court summons" when the time and place to challenge it has been and gone.
Its also hard to understand what the consequence of that challenge might be, as the crucial matter is the Offence of travelling without a valid ticket or non payment of a debt (or whatever the actual Offence was) and the OP hasn't given us a reason to imagine that the Court made the wrong decision.

I replied to the Southeastern notice of prosecution letter stating that I wished to appeal. That is the letter for whatever reason was ignored and were the administration error happened. It was not a court administration error.

From what I understand, it was my right to appeal against this, and because my letter had not been responded to, southeastern are in breech of the protocols that give the right to appeal.

The only information that I have been able to get out of them is that I had not replied and therefore they took me to court under the correct procedure. However, as I stated in the initial message, I have proof of sending the letter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The last post made by the OP raises a further question though - having chosen not to attend, why did you not appoint a Solicitor to attend? And if you thought that the summons should not have been issued, why did you not seek to deal with it there and then, rather than after you've been convicted in absentia.

I could not afford a solicitor and I did not think I needed one at the time.

The problem you face as far as I can see, is that usually an interview under caution follows onto an MG11 form (in essence a witness statement) written up by the Revenue Protection Inspector. SET write to you and ask for your version of events, and if/when you respond, they decide what to do. Now, regardless of what you write in response, they may well consider that they have enough evidence to prosecute. Remember, they are not obliged to settle out of Court with anyone. That will be at the discretion of their prosecution department.

Are you sure, because as I stated a few times now, it seems as though their are obliged to. Can you point out any sources for you assertion?

I think that if you'd attempted to deal with this earlier, we may well have been able to assist you in securing an out of Court settlement, but now you've left it so long - having now been convicted, I can't see a realistic avenue that is open to you. I can understand this isn't what you want to hear, but it would be poor behaviour by me to offer hope when there appears to be none.

I don't want hope. I want information that can guide me to get a reasonable response from Southeastern so that we can resolve this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Since you are aware of your court date and received your summons letter but chose not to attend, the answer is "no". Ask yourself this, on what grounds do you expect an exception to be made?



For what? What "administrative error" did they make?

SouthEastern are not obliged to enter into correspondence if they do not wish to. They have no obligation to accept any offer of settlement if they do not wish to.

You received the summons letter so you are fully aware of the offence you were being prosecuted under. No error has been made from SouthEastern's part.

bb21: Please see all above.

.

 

[oversteer]

Yes. Though I was unable to attend.

Why were you not able to attend court ?

What did you do on receiving the summons? Did you attempt to contact Southeastern again?

 

[Ferret]

I/you/we appear to be confused here. At the time South Eastern wrote to you, there was nothing to appeal against. As far as I understand it, they had interviewed you under caution, and the RPI had submitted an MG11 form. At this point, that is it - nothing here to appeal, just that you should give your version of events if you wished to do so. If all you wrote at this stage is that 'I want to appeal', then SET would have looked at it, and decided that you obviously hadn't read the notice properly, they had sufficient grounds to Prosecute, and went ahead and did it. This has resulted in a conviction, a 500 pound fine, and all the consequences of having a criminal record (travel to certain countries, needing to declare a conviction on job application forms).

So, in short, I can't see that SET have made an administrative error at all. If anything, it seems you've misunderstood what was happening, not sought to do anything about it, and are now reaping the consequences.

In short, I can't see what grounds upon which you could bring a case in the small claims Court, and there doesn't appear to be any grounds in law on which an appeal can be successful. I'm at a loss as to how you can proceed here I'm afraid - as far as SET are concerned, the matter is closed. I can't see Passenger Focus being all that concerned about a traveller without a ticket being prosecuted, and SET would probably welcome any such story appearing in the newspapers as a deterrent to others.

As I say, I'm sorry we can't be of assistance in this case, but you really have left it too late. I think we'd probably have been able to help you if you'd contacted us before the matter reached Court, which makes it all the more frustrating!

Edit - just to answer a question you asked - why would they be obliged to settle out of Court? They had evidence that you had committed an offence on their railway. They are entitled to prosecute privately as a means of resolving that matter. And that's what they appear to have done.

 

[snail]

Even accepting what you say about Southeastern not receiving your letter, you did receive further notice in the form of a court summons. That was your chance to contact them again and ask if you could settle this without going to court. Instead you did nothing, hoping it would somehow sort itself out.

And as others have said, had Southeastern got your letter there is no guarantee they would have changed their response (but it is possible they would have accepted settlement at that stage).

Sadly, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

There is no obligation for SouthEastern to entertain any kind of correspondence with someone who they are in the process of taking to court.

There is also no obligation to accept an out of court settlement in criminal prosecutions.

I also note that you wrote you wanted to appeal in reply to the notice of prosecution. You can't appeal a notice of prosecution (there's nothing to appeal against!), so SouthEastern probably filed it in the bin. You can however, appeal conviction - if you pleaded not guilty - or sentence.

 

[SWTCommuter]

However, as I stated in the initial message, I have proof of sending the letter.

Did you use a tracked postal service that would prove that SET received your letter?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I could not afford a solicitor and I did not think I needed one at the time.


.

You didn't think you needed a solicitor despite receiving a court summons?!

 

[bb21]

I could not afford a solicitor and I did not think I needed one at the time.

You should then in that case go to the CAB and requested Legal Aid.

It is too late now I am afraid. While I can sympathise with the severity of the consequences, you really can't blame it on anyone else.