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Penalty fare - Ticket bought on train

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Perhaps unsurprisingly I've been told that the first appeal was refused. At least that guarantees no prosecutions down the road.

I've copied and pasted the original appeal and submitted again - it sounds as though the third one is the best chance.
 
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Spaceship323

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Hi. Where is this written down?
In my area a conductor will still sell you a ticket...that ticket is obviously valid to travel (even though there are penalty fare notices at the station). (Maybe they get a commission?).
(Just like to say I always get my ticket before boarding)
 
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Lewisham2221

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In my area a conductor will still sell you a ticket...that ticket is obviously valid to travel (even though there are penalty fare notices at the station). (Maybe they get a commission?).
(Just like to say I always get my ticket before boarding)
Where I am, guards can't issue penalty fares, only RPOs can. So under normal circumstances you may be sold a ticket, if you get unlucky an RPO might get to you first and issue a penalty fare. The bigger issue tends to be people who purchase a ticket on their phone once onboard, are therefore unable to select the service they are actually travelling on, so select the next service and then go on to purchase the cheapest ticket - usually an advance which then isn't valid.
 

AlterEgo

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Hi. Where is this written down?
It isn't. It's obvious. If you as a conductor sell a ticket to someone after they have boarded at a station with facilities, the ticket you just sold is valid for their journey. Why wouldn't it be?

Where is it written down that a ticket bought after boarding isn't valid?
 

30907

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It isn't. It's obvious. If you as a conductor sell a ticket to someone after they have boarded at a station with facilities, the ticket you just sold is valid for their journey. Why wouldn't it be?

Where is it written down that a ticket bought after boarding isn't valid?
It isn't. It may be a Bylaw offence but that's another matter
 
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Received another refusal citing parts of the National Rail Conditions of Travel. Wondered if anyone had any knowledge of whether these should be applied here or if that's a mistake?

I've copied the relevant parts below:

Condition 6.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) sets out the circumstances under which it
is acceptable to board the train without a valid ticket.
Whilst I take on board your comments that you purchased a ticket which you believe to be classified as a
valid ticket for your journey, I must point out that for the ticket to be classified as a valid ticket, it must be
purchased prior to boarding the train.
With reference to your comments relating to the Penalty Fare Regulations. If I can draw your attention to
the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCOT) which outlines your requirement to have a valid ticket to
travel:-
6.0 - In order to be valid, some tickets must be activated or endorsed with a date of travel before you board
a train. This is made clear in the terms & conditions of those Tickets.
6.1 - You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel before you board a train where there was the
opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1 - At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because
there is no Ticket office open or a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your
only available method of payment (card or cash); and where notices indicate that Penalty Fares may apply
from that station, you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at
the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for more information about Penalty Fares.
This is notified to all in the Penalty fare warning posters that are on display at every penalty fares station
(as required under Regulation 8) advising customers of the consequences for boarding a penalty fares train
without a valid ticket or other authority to travel in their possession.
The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to
boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for
inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they
may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare Notice
I can confirm that the train company provided the opportunity to purchase a ticket prior to boarding via the
means of a staffed ticket office. This was available for ticket purchases, ticket printing and also any
customer enquiries. There not being any barriers or gates at X can not be used as mitigation for not having purchased a ticket, it is the passengers responsibility to arrive with enough time to purchase a ticket for travel prior to boarding the train using the facilities provided.
As you did not purchase a valid ticket prior to boarding the train, it has been concluded by Penalty Services
that the Penalty Fare should still stand.
 

Watershed

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Received another refusal citing parts of the National Rail Conditions of Travel. Wondered if anyone had any knowledge of whether these should be applied here or if that's a mistake?

I've copied the relevant parts below:

Condition 6.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) sets out the circumstances under which it
is acceptable to board the train without a valid ticket.
Whilst I take on board your comments that you purchased a ticket which you believe to be classified as a
valid ticket for your journey, I must point out that for the ticket to be classified as a valid ticket, it must be
purchased prior to boarding the train.
With reference to your comments relating to the Penalty Fare Regulations. If I can draw your attention to
the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCOT) which outlines your requirement to have a valid ticket to
travel:-
6.0 - In order to be valid, some tickets must be activated or endorsed with a date of travel before you board
a train. This is made clear in the terms & conditions of those Tickets.
6.1 - You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel before you board a train where there was the
opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1 - At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because
there is no Ticket office open or a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your
only available method of payment (card or cash); and where notices indicate that Penalty Fares may apply
from that station, you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at
the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for more information about Penalty Fares.
This is notified to all in the Penalty fare warning posters that are on display at every penalty fares station
(as required under Regulation 8) advising customers of the consequences for boarding a penalty fares train
without a valid ticket or other authority to travel in their possession.
The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to
boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for
inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they
may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare Notice
I can confirm that the train company provided the opportunity to purchase a ticket prior to boarding via the
means of a staffed ticket office. This was available for ticket purchases, ticket printing and also any
customer enquiries. There not being any barriers or gates at X can not be used as mitigation for not having purchased a ticket, it is the passengers responsibility to arrive with enough time to purchase a ticket for travel prior to boarding the train using the facilities provided.
As you did not purchase a valid ticket prior to boarding the train, it has been concluded by Penalty Services
that the Penalty Fare should still stand.
It's often only the third stage of appeal where your appeal grounds are properly looked into, rather than receiving a regurgitated and inaccurate response.

For starters, what they refer to as "condition 6.0" of the NRCoT is actually the contents of an "INFORMATION" panel. At the very start of the NRCoT we are told that:
Please note that these panels and footnotes are for explanations only and do not form part of a Train Company’s contract with you.
So by definition, being non-contractual, they cannot cite them as evidence that your appeal should be denied.

Aside from that, the panel indicates that this restriction only applies to "some" tickets and that it would be made clear if this applied to your ticket. There is no evidence to suggest that it applied to your ticket, or that this was made clear when buying it. An e-ticket such as the one you presumably bought doesn't require activating, nor can it be endorsed with the date of travel. It is already issued for a specific date.

Condition "6.0" therefore cannot be a basis for arguing that your ticket was invalid.

Furthermore, nor does condition 6.1 give them grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare. It merely states the potential consequences of boarding without a ticket, i.e. it serves as a summary of the law.

Penalty Fares are issued under the Penalty Fares Regulations. It is these Regulations, not the NRCoT, that determine out the circumstances under which PFs can be issued. The NRCoT is only relevant in determining what counts as a "valid ticket" or creating additional exceptions to the PF Regulations (such as if your preferred payment method isn't accepted).

Overall the rejection wording you've received is clearly canned and takes little to no account of your actual appeal or circumstances. You'll want to submit something that takes into account the grounds I've mentioned above for your third (final) stage appeal.

Bear in mind that even a failed third stage appeal does not force you to pay: only a County Court judgement would do that. As you have brought a first stage appeal without the PF subsequently having been withdrawn, this is now purely a civil matter and if SWR wished to pursue it further, they would have to take it bring a civil claim against you in the County Court.

In our experience, train companies don't do this. We have never heard of a single case of it. Whilst it is always a possibility, I would regard it as very remote and if a third stage appeal were to be unreasonably refused, refusing to pay is a course of action I would give thought to - having considered the potential pros and cons of each approach.

What we have heard of, is train companies unlawfully bringing prosecutions after a first stage PF appeal has been decided. As previously mentioned, this is not legally allowed. However, there is nothing external to prevent this from happening and so if the train company doesn't care about complying with the law, it is a risk you would need to take into account. You might then have to defend that prosecution on the basis that SWR were barred from bringing it.
 

Haywain

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Bear in mind that even a failed third stage appeal does not force you to pay: only a County Court judgement would do that. As you have brought a first stage appeal without the PF subsequently having been withdrawn, this is now purely a civil matter and if SWR wished to pursue it further, they would have to take it bring a civil claim against you in the County Court.

In our experience, train companies don't do this. We have never heard of a single case of it. Whilst it is always a possibility, I would regard it as very remote and if a third stage appeal were to be unreasonably refused, refusing to pay is a course of action I would give thought to - having considered the potential pros and cons of each approach.

What we have heard of, is train companies unlawfully bringing prosecutions after a first stage PF appeal has been decided. As previously mentioned, this is not legally allowed. However, there is nothing external to prevent this from happening and so if the train company doesn't care about complying with the law, it is a risk you would need to take into account. You might then have to defend that prosecution on the basis that SWR were barred from bringing it.
All rather irrelevant as the OP states in post #1 that it has already been paid. Therefore a failed third appeal would mean that there will be no refund. Having said that, a third appeal should succeed on the basis that the "reason for issue" is incorrect - stating "no ticket" when the grounds then go on to say that a ticket was held.
 

MotCO

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All rather irrelevant as the OP states in post #1 that it has already been paid. Therefore a failed third appeal would mean that there will be no refund. Having said that, a third appeal should succeed on the basis that the "reason for issue" is incorrect - stating "no ticket" when the grounds then go on to say that a ticket was held.
Although it was clarified earlier that a ticket bought on the train still counts as a valid ticket, I would not trust the Appeals Committee to necessarily agree with this, so I would use this as one of the grounds for your final appeal, but not the only one.
 
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Thanks all for looking this over and commenting. I've updated the original appeal to refute the references to the NRCoT - unless anyone advises differently I'll submit tomorrow.

I paid the penalty on the day it was issued so if this appeal is refused too there won't be anything further. Fingers crossed, and if it works will come back and update you all - hope the wording can be useful to others:

I would like to appeal the penalty fare on the grounds that it was invalidly issued.

The basis given for the penalty fare being issued was "no ticket". This is presumably based on regulation 4.—(1) "A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket" and 5.—(1) "Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare."

When asked by the SWR representative at London Waterloo station I was able to show a valid ticket for the journey I had just taken - the 07:38 from London Road Guildford to London Waterloo- as admitted on the penalty fare. I have uploaded a picture of the ticket and can see that an image was already attached to the penalty fare itself.

Additionally, the other ground given for the penalty fare - that I did not validate the ticket at Guildford - is both not a valid ground for issuing a penalty fare in the first place and also incorrect. As I explained to the SWR representative at the time, I boarded the train at London Road Guildford, which does not have gates barring entry without a ticket, and bought a return to Guildford so I could take the faster train home that evening.

Therefore no valid grounds have been provided for issuing this penalty fare - it was issued on the grounds of my not possessing a ticket, but as admitted on the penalty fare itself and as has already been uploaded by the SWR representative themselves, I had a ticket that I displayed when requested.

I do not believe that the previous appeal was correct for the following reasons:

The decision references ‘Condition 6.0; of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT). Having reviewed the NRCoT, this is an information panel, which is expressly excluded from forming part of a contract with a Train Company. It also does not appear relevant, as this was a ticket I purchased on my phone as an anytime return and did not require endorsement or validation.

Conditions 6.1 and 6.1.1, also referenced, do not refer to the Penalty Fares Regulations, which are by my understanding the only regulations under which a penalty fare can be issued. As such, these also do not provide for the penalty fare being issued or the rejection of my appeal.

As stated in my previous appeals, no valid grounds have been provided for issuing this penalty fare - it was issued on the grounds of my not possessing a ticket, but as admitted on the penalty fare itself and as has already been uploaded by the SWR representative themselves, I had a ticket that I displayed when requested.
 

MotCO

Established Member
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Thanks all for looking this over and commenting. I've updated the original appeal to refute the references to the NRCoT - unless anyone advises differently I'll submit tomorrow.

I paid the penalty on the day it was issued so if this appeal is refused too there won't be anything further. Fingers crossed, and if it works will come back and update you all - hope the wording can be useful to others:

I would like to appeal the penalty fare on the grounds that it was invalidly issued.

The basis given for the penalty fare being issued was "no ticket". This is presumably based on regulation 4.—(1) "A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket" and 5.—(1) "Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare."

When asked by the SWR representative at London Waterloo station I was able to show a valid ticket for the journey I had just taken - the 07:38 from London Road Guildford to London Waterloo- as admitted on the penalty fare. I have uploaded a picture of the ticket and can see that an image was already attached to the penalty fare itself.

Additionally, the other ground given for the penalty fare - that I did not validate the ticket at Guildford - is both not a valid ground for issuing a penalty fare in the first place and also incorrect. As I explained to the SWR representative at the time, I boarded the train at London Road Guildford, which does not have gates barring entry without a ticket, and bought a return to Guildford so I could take the faster train home that evening.

Therefore no valid grounds have been provided for issuing this penalty fare - it was issued on the grounds of my not possessing a ticket, but as admitted on the penalty fare itself and as has already been uploaded by the SWR representative themselves, I had a ticket that I displayed when requested.

I do not believe that the previous appeal was correct for the following reasons:

The decision references ‘Condition 6.0; of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT). Having reviewed the NRCoT, this is an information panel, which is expressly excluded from forming part of a contract with a Train Company. It also does not appear relevant, as this was a ticket I purchased on my phone as an anytime return and did not require endorsement or validation.

Conditions 6.1 and 6.1.1, also referenced, do not refer to the Penalty Fares Regulations, which are by my understanding the only regulations under which a penalty fare can be issued. As such, these also do not provide for the penalty fare being issued or the rejection of my appeal.

As stated in my previous appeals, no valid grounds have been provided for issuing this penalty fare - it was issued on the grounds of my not possessing a ticket, but as admitted on the penalty fare itself and as has already been uploaded by the SWR representative themselves, I had a ticket that I displayed when requested.

Two quick points. Is the other station called plain Guildford, or is there an added descriptor such as High Street etc. Otherwise to the uninitiated appeal reader it is a bit confusing - maybe you need to say that it was a different station to make it clear. Maybe add the three letter code for the station to make it clear.

Secondly, you probably need to add a sentence at the end setting out what you are looking for - i.e. because the penalty fare was not issued correctly in line with the Regulations, you are asking for the penalty fare to be withdrawn and your payment refunded.
 
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Two quick points. Is the other station called plain Guildford, or is there an added descriptor such as High Street etc. Otherwise to the uninitiated appeal reader it is a bit confusing - maybe you need to say that it was a different station to make it clear. Maybe add the three letter code for the station to make it clear.

Secondly, you probably need to add a sentence at the end setting out what you are looking for - i.e. because the penalty fare was not issued correctly in line with the Regulations, you are asking for the penalty fare to be withdrawn and your payment refunded.
Thanks - the other station is just called Guildford so I think that should be clear.
I'll add a final sentence - "As the penalty fare was not issued correctly in line with the Regulations, I am asking that the penalty fare is rescinded and my payment is refunded."
Thank you all again
 

MotCO

Established Member
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Thanks - the other station is just called Guildford so I think that should be clear.
I think Guildford station is (GLD). The other station is actually London Road (Guildford) (LRD). You may want to make this distinction.
 

John R

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You say you bought a return TO Guildford, which is confusing if not wrong. You should say that you bought a return FROM Guildford TO Waterloo.
 
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