Penalty Fare Query

[BTC1989]

Hi,

So today I finished work at 3:30pm. Headed to my local station which has a ticket machine although I typically just use the Trainline app to catch the 4:03pm train.

However, I had just made it to the station. I was trying to purchase my ticket through the Trainline app as I boarded the train, but that specific train was listed as departed. A couple minutes later a Penalty Enforcement Officer asked for my ticket. I explained I was unable to purchase the 4:03pm specific ticket on the app as it was listed as departed. I have a 4:33pm ticket (both are off peak day returns and no different in price) but he refused to accept this and instead issued me a penalty fair after taking my details.

He didn't give me anything in writing just gave me a PF number and a website to either pay the fine or appeal it.

My question is where do I stand with the appeal or should I just pay the fine ?

Many thanks in advance.

 

[Trainman40083]

Hi,

So today I finished work at 3:30pm. Headed to my local station which has a ticket machine although I typically just use the Trainline app to catch the 4:03pm train.

However, I had just made it to the station. I was trying to purchase my ticket through the Trainline app as I boarded the train, but that specific train was listed as departed. A couple minutes later a Penalty Enforcement Officer asked for my ticket. I explained I was unable to purchase the 4:03pm specific ticket on the app as it was listed as departed. I have a 4:33pm ticket (both are off peak day returns and no different in price) but he refused to accept this and instead issued me a penalty fair after taking my details.

He didn't give me anything in writing just gave me a PF number and a website to either pay the fine or appeal it.

My question is where do I stand with the appeal or should I just pay the fine ?

Many thanks in advance.

You boarded a train without a valid ticket. Unfortunate timing though.

 

[AlterEgo]

You boarded a train without a valid ticket. Unfortunate timing though.

Regardless, this is not a reason to issue a Penalty Fare. A valid ticket was presented, the fact it was bought on-board is not relevant. The OP should appeal on these grounds alone.

OP, please also show us a picture of the notice with your personal details removed, as it may be noncompliant in other ways too.

 

[Starmill]

You boarded a train without a valid ticket. Unfortunate timing though.

That may have been an offence under the Byelaw, but it doesn't seem to be one of the prescribed reasons to issue a Penalty Fare. As such it's very unlikely that the Penalty Fare is valid.

Penalty Fares must be physically handed to you in order to permit you to complete the journey for which it was made out. The Penalty Fare is not valid if this is not done. However, this ground for the appeal is much more difficult to evidence.

You are free to start with the former ground of appeal and move on to the latter later if you like.

I have to wonder if the inspector made the Penalty Fare out for no ticket, because it is unlikely that their machine had an option on it that isn't one of the reasons to issue a valid Penalty Fare. If that were the case the customer would have been able to use that to assist them with winning their appeal. You could lodge a complaint after you've won your appeal and ask to be shown a copy of the data from the inspector's machine. It may be very revealing as to why the PF wasn't given to you. I don't think we need to consider the possibility of it being forgotten either, because the number was provided without the paperwork, which is irregular.

 

[BTC1989]

I wasn't physically handed anything from the officer. He simply read out a 6 digit PF number to me. Would I be emailed a notice or does this come through the post?

Regardless, this is not a reason to issue a Penalty Fare. A valid ticket was presented, the fact it was bought on-board is not relevant. The OP should appeal on these grounds alone.

OP, please also show us a picture of the notice with your personal details removed, as it may be noncompliant in other ways too.

 

[signed]

Regardless, this is not a reason to issue a Penalty Fare. A valid ticket was presented, the fact it was bought on-board is not relevant. The OP should appeal on these grounds alone.

Genuine question, is a ticket valid prior to it being bought? I wouldn't be sure myself

 

[AlterEgo]

I wasn't physically handed anything from the officer. He simply read out a 6 digit PF number to me. Would I be emailed a notice or does this come through the post?

Are you certain you were penalty fared? You should have been handed a notice.

Genuine question, is a ticket valid prior to it being bought?

No. Why would it be valid •before• it was bought?

 

[signed]

No. Why would it be valid •before• it was bought?

That is the main point here, is a ticket bought at like 1605 valid on a train departing its stop at 1603?

From 1605 it is a valid ticket, but is "valid ticket" in the PF regs at the time of inspection or at the time of initial boarding

 

[Starmill]

I wasn't physically handed anything from the officer. He simply read out a 6 digit PF number to me. Would I be emailed a notice or does this come through the post?

No. Penalty Fares can only be issued in person.

 

[WesternLancer]

I wasn't physically handed anything from the officer. He simply read out a 6 digit PF number to me. Would I be emailed a notice or does this come through the post?

This sounds irregular and could create all sorts of problems. How do you know how to pay the penalty fare or indeed how or where to submit any appeal?

 

[BTC1989]

This sounds irregular and could create all sorts of problems. How do you know how to pay the penalty fare or indeed how or where to submit any appea

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2025 ==

I was told to open my notes app and jot these down.

 

[signed]

Deleted, outdated

 

[Cowley]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2025 ==

I was told to open my notes app and jot these down.

Please delete that picture, the number of the PF is present

That’s been done now.

 

[AlterEgo]

From 1605 it is a valid ticket, but is "valid ticket" in the PF regs at the time of inspection or at the time of initial boarding

It's at the time of inspection. Hence you cannot issue a penalty fare in these circumstances. The debate has been done to death here before and penalty fares are routinely overturned for this reason. Suspect the RPI knows this which is why they didn't bother printing a notice off and hoped the OP would pay their unlawfully issued penalty fare online.

 

[signed]

It's at the time of inspection. Hence you cannot issue a penalty fare in these circumstances. The debate has been done to death here before and penalty fares are routinely overturned for this reason. Suspect the RPI knows this which is why they didn't bother printing a notice off and hoped the OP would pay their unlawfully issued penalty fare online.

Thanks for that clarification

 

[Starmill]

Hopefully the OP's first ground for an appeal is successful as it's definitely their best. The way to phrase is is that you did show a valid ticket so there couldn't be any valid Penalty Fare charged for a reason of no ticket. You may want to include further details and people here would be happy to proof read it for you, but the above is the gist. You will need the evidence of the ticket you showed, or attempted to show.

 

[Haywain]

I think it is questionable whether a Penalty Fare has actually been issued, and wonder whether the OP has become a little confused by what happened. The reference number could possibly be a reference number for a report for prosecution.

 

[signed]

I think it is questionable whether a Penalty Fare has actually been issued, and wonder whether the OP has become a little confused by what happened. The reference number could possibly be a reference number for a report for prosecution.

The screenshot that was deleted #11 mentioned a 6 digit code, and the websites for ircas and appeal-service

So unless the RPI took OP for a ride and faked that, I would assume a PF has been successfully issued

 

[Haywain]

So unless the RPI took OP for a ride and faked that, I would assume a PF has been successfully issued

I don't know about the phone number and websites, but the PF has very clearly not been successfully issued if the OP has not been provided with a copy of it.

 

[gray1404]

Which train company did you travel on?. Between what stations and on what date? Also what is the time of issue of the ticket you got on Trainline?

 

[BTC1989]

Which train company did you travel on?. Between what stations and on what date? Also what is the time of issue of the ticket you got on Trainline?

West Midlands trains, I was travelling between Cannock and Marston Green today (14/08) there is no specific time that I can see on Trainline app.

 

[Starmill]

West Midlands trains, I was travelling between Cannock and Marston Green today (14/08) there is no specific time that I can see on Trainline app.

If you open your email confirmation you may find there's a time on the PDF of the ticket. Or perhaps not, but this is worth locating either way.

 

[gray1404]

The 16:03 departed 2 minutes late today. It didn't arrive until 16:04 and departed at 16:05. We need to see what time the e-ticket was issued at.

Realtime Trains | 1550 Rugeley Trent Valley to Birmingham International | 14/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 1550 departure from Rugeley Trent Valley to Birmingham International on 14/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I have a 4:33pm ticket (both are off peak day returns and no different in price) but he refused to accept this and instead issued me a penalty fair after taking my details.

I assume you are aware that the only time restrictions on an "off peak day return" are that it has to be used on the day it is dated for and at the times indicated by the validity code.

Therefore the ticket can be purchased at an earlier time of your convenience rather than immediately prior to travel. So there's not really such a thing as a 4.33pm ticket outside of the booked train only Advance ticket type.

What the ticket inspection gadget is likely to check for is whether the ticket was issued after the scheduled departure time of the train you are on.