Penalty fare query.

[ashworth]

Just to clarify a few points that seem to have been raised.

Firstly thanks for the constructive replies. If there are no penalty fares on the Nottingham to Worksop route there is no problem. I was just concerned whether it did include journeys from Nottingham which does have ticket issuing facilities unlike many of the unmanned stations on the line.

Indeed there are no AP through tickets from London to Mansfield via Grantham. The reason I occasionally travel that route on a Sunday afternoon is because cheap AP tickets are often late being released and difficult to obtain on direct EMT services from St Pancras for Sundays.
Secondly even when through AP tickets are available from St Pancras to Mansfield they are much more expensive than the AP tickets to and from Nottingham and so it still requires splitting tickets to get the best deal.

I've also pointed out in another thread that when making journeys to stations such as Norwich, Manchester or Liverpool from Mansfield I have to split tickets at Nottingham or Sheffield because EMT do not appear to issue AP tickets including local connecting services into their Norwich-Liverpool route even from their own EMT local services.

 

[John @ home]

when making journeys to stations such as Norwich, Manchester or Liverpool from Mansfield I have to split tickets at Nottingham or Sheffield because EMT do not appear to issue AP tickets including local connecting services into their Norwich-Liverpool route even from their own EMT local services.

Agreed. NFM 04 contains no Advance fares for Norwich-Mansfield, Manchester-Mansfield or Liverpool-Mansfield.

 

[Old Timer]

Agreed. NFM 04 contains no Advance fares for Norwich-Mansfield, Manchester-Mansfield or Liverpool-Mansfield.

The whole ticketing scenario is a complete mess I think.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, this is why the fares and tickets section of the forum is so busy!

 

[Wyvern]

Nottingham station is a Penalty Fares station but, while you are at that station, in the circumstances you describe you will have a valid London to Nottingham ticket entitling you to be there.

Yes but, even though the Worksop line stations are not penalty fare stations, if you leave for Worksop from Nottingham (which is a penalty fare station), without a ticket you will be liable for a penalty fare.

From the leaflet you linked to:

"If you are travelling from a Penalty Fare station on an
East Midlands Trains Service (see map towards the
back of this leaflet for details) and you are unable
to produce a valid ticket, you may be liable to pay a
Penalty Fare. "

 

[John @ home]

if you leave for Worksop from Nottingham (which is a penalty fare station), without a ticket you will be liable for a penalty fare.

Not on a Nottingham - Worksop train.

2 Definitions
d. 'Penalty fares train' means a train for which penalty fares may be charged, in line with an approved penalty fares scheme and with these rules, to passengers without a valid ticket who have boarded at a penalty fares station.

I'm not able immediately to find an electronic copy of the EMT Penalty Fares Scheme, but it is clear from the DfT's Penalty Fares Scheme Template, together with EMT's map, that Nottingham - Worksop trains are not Penalty fares trains.

 

[Wyvern]

Not on a Nottingham - Worksop train.

But you are leaving from a penalty fare station.

The bit I quoted above (which appears everywhere I have looked) is from this

Penalty Fares Scheme Template[/URL], together with EMT's map, that Nottingham - Worksop trains are not Penalty fares trains.

Now you are talking about penalty fare trains rather than penalty fare stations

This is quite different but it would explain the statement I started this thread with.

"Penalty fares only apply to journeys between penalty fare stations, therefore Belper to Chesterfield & Sheffield is subject to penalties whereas Belper to Matlock is not.

Now we are getting somewhere.

 

[John @ home]

But you are leaving from a penalty fare station.

But ashworth could not be charged a Penalty Fare at that station because he would hold a valid London Terminals - Nottingham route EC & Connections ticket. In addition, ashworth is not boarding a penalty fares train.

2 Definitions
e. 'Penalty fares station' means a station where, if a person without a valid ticket boards a train which is a penalty fares train, he or she may have to pay a penalty fare in line with an approved penalty fares scheme and with these rules.

 

[ashworth]

If I am lucky enough to arrive in Nottingham on time I will ask the conductor on the Robin Hood Line train before I board if i can pay on the train. They are always standing against the rear door just before departure.

I will show him my London-Nottingham ticket and explain that I have just got off my other train and did not have time to buy a ticket.

Thanks again for all the discussion concerning my question. It has all been interesting to read.

 

[Wyvern]

Yep.

The bolded words are very carefully left out of EMTs leaflet and other references in the literature.

"Penalty fares station' means a station where, if a person without a valid ticket boards a train which is a penalty fares train, he or she may have to pay a penalty fare in line with an approved penalty fares scheme and with these rules.

Incidentally I understood Ashworth to have only bought a ticket as far as Nottingham because it was likely he'd miss the Worksop train.

 

[Helvellyn]

To clarify a few things.

A Penalty Fare is issued on a train to the next Station stop. That station has to be a Penalty Fare station, as the "from" and "to" stations must both be Penalty Fare stations. So while the final destination a person is travelling to on a train might not be a Penalty Fare station, if they baorded at one, and the train will be still be stopping at some, a Penalty Fare can be issued.

A question was asked why someone who say boards at a SWT station that is the Penalty Fare area could not be issued a Penalty Fare at York, because they boarded at a Penalty Fare station. Well Penalty Fare schemes exist independently of each other. So the fact someone boarded at a Penalty station in one scheme does not mean they can receive one at a station in another scheme.

Some schemes do overlap though, for example Southern's Penalty Fare scheme extends into Portsmouth and Southampton. These are on the SWT network. Now a reciprocal agreement allows SWT Revenue Protection staff to issue Penalty Fares on Southern's behalf (and vice versa). However, the two schemes cannot be considered as one, i.e. merged. So someone travelling from Littlehampton to Haslemere could be issued a Penalty Fare by SWT staff at Havant, as Havant is in the Southern scheme and the reciprocal agreement allows the SWT staff to issue it. At Haslemere though, a Penalty Fare could only be issued from Havant to Haslemere because Haslemere is only in the SWT scheme. The Revenue member, though authorised to issue Penalty Fares on behalf of Southern, cannot do so for a Littlehampton-Haslemere journey because that would be treating two schemes as one.

Some TOCs have several Penalty Fare schemes - FGW have three, that are all separate. So someone can't be issued a Penalty Fare at Bristol Temple Meads for travel from Paignton because Temple Meads is in scheme 'B' and Paignton is in scheme 'C'.

 

[yorkie]

A Penalty Fare is issued on a train to the next Station stop. That station has to be a Penalty Fare station, as the "from" and "to" stations must both be Penalty Fare stations. So while the final destination a person is travelling to on a train might not be a Penalty Fare station, if they baorded at one, and the train will be still be stopping at some, a Penalty Fare can be issued.

That's what I originally thought. So you are confirming that this...

However East Midlands Trains seem to think that they only apply when both the departure and destination stations are Penalty Fare ones.

... is not correct. The destination appears to be irrelevant. What matters is the origin, and whether the train is a penalty fare train or not. Right?

 

[Wyvern]

No not quite. Helvellyn has not mentioned "Penalty Fare Trains"

The destination is not relevant. It is the next station stop which is where the penalty fare is issued to if I read him right, providing that station is also a penalty fare station.

He/she has written "That station has to be a Penalty Fare station, as the "from" and "to" stations must both be Penalty Fare stations. " (on the penalty fare ticket I assume.

If that is the case the quotation I started with"Penalty fares only apply to journeys between penalty fare stations, therefore Belper to Chesterfield & Sheffield is subject to penalties whereas Belper to Matlock is not." is misleading.

Matlock is irrelevant because the next station stop is Ambergate which is not a penalty fare station.

Incidentally another point is that a station may be a pf station for one TOC but not another. For instance EMT says it has reciprocal arrangements with FCC, but Luton (which is the only one I have checked) is a penalty fare station for FCC but not EMT.

 

[Skarpur]

With regards to Dronfield if a passenger boards the odd EMT service that actually stops there, do they have to seek out the guard immediately on boarding the train?

 

[Wyvern]

This is interesting. I had been told that the stations on the Matlock line can not be PF stations because they have no TVMs or PERTIS (and a PERTIS has been especially installed at Duffield) Similarly I imagine on the Worksop line.

Yet Dronfield has no ticket machine or PERTIS but is a penalty fare station (for East Midlands but not Northern)

So yes I imagine you would need to seek out the guard on an EMT train to buy a ticket on the train assuming its next station stop was Sheffield which is also a Penalty Fare station (for EMT only).

 

[Mojo]

Up until 2005, Little Kimble did not used to have a PERTIS, TVM or ticket office, but it was still designated a Penalty Fares station, with a sign at the station noting the lack of facilities but still saying it was a Penalty Fares station.

 

[jon0844]

Did it also say underneath 'Go home'?

 

[ashworth]

But ashworth could not be charged a Penalty Fare at that station because he would hold a valid London Terminals - Nottingham route EC & Connections ticket. In addition, ashworth is not boarding a penalty fares train.

Here is an update on what actually did happen!!!

I was at Nottingham station about a week before my journey to and from London and so I asked one of the station staff what the situation would be.
I was told quite clearly that I would not be able to board a Robin Hood line service without a ticket or I would be charged a penalty fare. I explained very carefully that I would be travelling from london and will only have a maximum of 6 minutes to change trains but the answer was still the same. They were very apologetic, agreed that it was a rediculous situation and very inconvenient, that I would have to walk accross Nottingham to the bus station with my luggage to catch a bus, but they could do nothing about it.

On my outward journey to London on the Friday I thought I would get a second opinion and asked another member of the Nottingham station staff and he came up with the same answer. He was a bit more helpful and suggested that I might try to purchase a ticket from the conductor on my previous train before I arrived in Nottingham.

What happened on the day?
The train from Grantham to Nottingham was held up for a few minutes just outside Nottingham station and so I decided not to purchase a ticket, as I would rather catch the bus than face the possibility of waiting another hour for the next train. As it happened I arrived in Nottingham with about 4 minutes to spare and so I crossed the platform to the Mansfield train, showed the conductor my ticket from London and explained that I wouldn't have time to get up to the ticket office.
He just looked rather amazed that I should ask and seemed to be saying 'What's the problem. Why shouldn't I be able to sell you a ticket?

When he came down the train he came with his ticket machine saying: Tickets and fares please, and he sold tickets to a number of passengers!

Do the staff at Nottingham really know what they are talking about or have the train staff not been informed of the situation.
Perhaps the advice coing from Nottingham station staff is just EMT up to their usual tricks

 

[yorkie]

Do the staff at Nottingham really know what they are talking about or have the train staff not been informed of the situation.
Perhaps the advice coing from Nottingham station staff is just EMT up to their usual tricks

Of course they don't. I have to be careful what I say here, but the intelligence of some people has to be questioned, but it's more a training issue than anything else. EMT are frequently up to dirty tricks, and any company under the ownership of Brian Souter needs to be watched carefully for controversy. Their leaflet on penalty fares is deliberately misleading.