Penalty fare query.

[Wyvern]

Two issues came up in another thread where because it would go off-topic I'm opening a new one.

isnt the 16-18 only on busses? if not ive wasted a bit of money

It probably varies between one local authority and another.

However, you did cast my mind to a scheme in the W. Mids whereby students are given a 16-18 card, which entitles them to local child fare tickets in lieu of their actual age.

A problem with Ticket Vending Machines is that they dont recognise local authority cards for OAPs or young persons. One solution that EMT suggested was to buy a half price child ticket.

What happens in fact is people are still allowed to board the train and pay. However it has been known for train staff not to know the rule and charge the the full open single fare.

More worrying is that EMT have now introduced a penalty fare scheme. Looking on the National Rail enquiries site, it says,"Penalty Fares apply if you are travelling from a Penalty Fare station."

However East Midlands Trains seem to think that they only apply when both the departure and destination stations are Penalty Fare ones.

Can anyone confirm this?

For example, they suggest;

Penalty fares only apply to journeys between penalty fare stations, therefore Belper to Chesterfield & Sheffield is subject to penalties whereas Belper to Matlock is not.

 

[yorkie]

Surely it's where you start your journey that matters? Although at an interchange station if you have a long time to change trains - enough to get a ticket - then that can come into play. But I don't think it matters where the destination station is, and cannot see how that is relevant. But if EMT state that then anyone could get out of a PF by claiming to go to a station that doesn't operate PFs (e.g. "I am going to Meadowhall, not Sheffield"). Bonkers!

 

[Helvellyn]

A problem with Ticket Vending Machines is that they dont recognise local authority cards for OAPs or young persons. One solution that EMT suggested was to buy a half price child ticket.

What happens in fact is people are still allowed to board the train and pay. However it has been known for train staff not to know the rule and charge the the full open single fare.

On SWT we accept students holding a Surrey Student Fare card travelling on child tickets after 16:00 in the area covered by the scheme. They must show the Student Fare Card and photocard for it to be valid. If someone is charged on the train for a full price ticket are you certain they are travelling when the local authority card is valid? Have they got all the required documentation? I'm not saying the staff member is right, but sometimes the passenger has broken the conditions. If it's genuinely the staff member who has got it wrong then they need rebriefed on the relevant section(s) of 'The Manual' that has sections covering all local authority discount cards.

More worrying is that EMT have now introduced a penalty fare scheme. Looking on the National Rail enquiries site, it says,"Penalty Fares apply if you are travelling from a Penalty Fare station."

However East Midlands Trains seem to think that they only apply when both the departure and destination stations are Penalty Fare ones.

Can anyone confirm this?

Yes, the origin and destination station must be both Penalty Fare stations. The train must also be a Penalty Fares train, i.e. if it starts outside the scheme area Penalty Fares can't be issued until it stops at a station in the scheme area.

For example, before SWT extended Penalty Fares from Salisbury to Exeter that part of the network was outside the Penalty Fare scheme. Someone travelling from Axminster to Waterloo could not be issued a Penalty Fare at Waterloo if they had no ticket. Because they boarded at a non-Penalty Fare station outside the Penalty Fare area. However, if someone was travelling from Waterloo to Axminster and was caught by an RPA/RPI with no ticket between Andover and Salisbury they would have been issued a Penalty Fare for twice the single fare from Waterloo to Salisbury (next station stop on an Exeter service) and given the option of a Condition 2 (Anytime Single) ticket from Salisbury to Axminster, or to leave the train at Salisbury to buy a cheaper ticket and travel an hour later.

Some passengers thought they would be clever when there were no Penalty Fares on the Hounslow Loop and say they travelled from a station there to avoid a Penalty Fare. Yet many were questioned about why they didn't have a ticket and found themselves reported for fare evasion instead!

 

[Wyvern]

If someone is charged on the train for a full price ticket are you certain they are travelling when the local authority card is valid?

Yes it was when the TVMs were installed at Matlock and Belper. The TM thought that they should have bought a ticket, not realising the machine didn't cater for Derbyshire Gold Cards. EMT's management hadn't realised it either or that it applies to all the local authorities on its patch, and are getting some sticky labels printed to put on the machines, since it confusing passengers as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Someone travelling from Axminster to Waterloo could not be issued a Penalty Fare at Waterloo if they had no ticket. Because they boarded at a non-Penalty Fare station outside the Penalty Fare area.

However, if someone was travelling from Waterloo to Axminster and was caught by an RPA/RPI with no ticket between Andover and Salisbury they would have been issued a Penalty Fare for twice the single fare from Waterloo to Salisbury (next station stop on an Exeter service) and given the option of a Condition 2 (Anytime Single) ticket from Salisbury to Axminster, or to leave the train at Salisbury to buy a cheaper ticket and travel an hour later.

Yes I think I'm following you.

So, on the same train, if the RPI caught them between Waterloo and Andover, or between Salisbury and Axminster, a penalty fare would not be payable.

My brain hurts

 

[yorkie]

Yes, the origin and destination station must be both Penalty Fare stations.

Really? So a journey from any SWT PF station to, say, York would not incur a penalty fare? I wouldn't have thought it should make a difference where the destination is!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

For the "resident ticket expert", you should know whether or not!

 

[Wyvern]

So, on the same train, if the RPI caught them between Waterloo and Andover, or between Salisbury and Axminster, a penalty fare would not be payable.

Hang on I 've still got this wrong.

You are saying:

Axminster to Waterloo - no PF

Waterloo to Axminster - PF

What about a train that didn't stop at Andover or Salisbury, but was through from Waterlkoo toi Axminster.

According to EMT a PF is not applicable in either direction since both the starting and finishing stations must be penalty fare stations.

 

[yorkie]

For the "resident ticket expert", you should know whether or not!

Got anything constructive to say? Why post that? :roll:

Do you now accept that people should not be issued penalty fares in the following circumstances?

1) Boarding at unstaffed stations (no, they are not compelled to go hunting for a guard)
2) Travelling on a ticket routed via X and instead travelling via Y
3) Travelling on an Off Peak ticket at a time when that ticket is not valid
[and various other circumstances not listed here]

You have made incorrect statements about penalty fares before. It's far better to ask questions and admit not knowing the answers rather than claim you do. That's why I am asking questions. No-one can be expected to know everything.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I don't think I have made an incorrect statement regarding ticket matters before, as I don't fully understand the system, and when I do I always make it clear that I don't know.

My comment was tounge in cheek to:

"I wouldn't have thought"


Anyway:

1) Yes they are compelled to go hunting for the guard, if not by rules, by honesty.
2) Yes they should be PF'd as they have not travelled to the terms of their ticket.
3) Yes they should be, for the same reasons as above.

 

[91101]

I have no idea regarding the other two circumstances, but I can assure you that beit by rules, or morality, under no circumstances is a passenger boarding at an unstaffed station compelled to hunt for the guard!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Hence why I said "if not by rules, by honesty".

It's like walking into Waitrose, taking some food, seeing that there is no one at the checkout and leaving without paying. Any honest person (in my opinion) would look for a sales assistant, the same as I would expect someone to look for a guard.

 

[91101]

100 passengers board at an unmanned station, and they all hunt for the guard...not really practical.

 

[trickyvegas]

Hence why I said "if not by rules, by honesty".

It's like walking into Waitrose, taking some food, seeing that there is no one at the checkout and leaving without paying. Any honest person (in my opinion) would look for a sales assistant, the same as I would expect someone to look for a guard.

I'm afraid I don't agree with that, the guard's job is to come down the train and check and sell tickets. If he can't be bothered to that, a ticket can be bought at the other end of the journey. If that his not possible, the passenger has done nothing wrong, in my opinion.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It looks like we shall have to agree to disagree.

Anyway surely finding the guard and buying a ticket will save you time, rather than buying one at the other end?

As I said - my view of honesty.

 

[yorkie]

Anyway surely finding the guard and buying a ticket will save you time, rather than buying one at the other end?

Which is exactly why it is seen as queue jumping on certain lines! if the guard is about to get to you, why should someone else get there first and then it's time to do the doors and you then have to spend ages queuing? That is, of course, where there is a conductor...

I suspect there are many more penalty fare trains without a conductor (SWT suburban have non-commercial guards, many Chiltern services, all FCC services, many NXEA services, etc ......) than with a conductor. So how is the customer supposed to know? Is a customer meant to go up and down an FCC train in case they have a guard or are they meant to do some research before their journey? Talk about making travel difficult...!

This isn't a rule at all, it's just an opinion, and one many people are going to disagree with you on, Ralph.

As for the other points, see this post by an experienced, knowledgeable RPI.

So no PF is applicable on any of the 3 points raised.

 

[John @ home]

Do you now accept that people should not be issued penalty fares in the following circumstances?

1) Boarding at unstaffed stations (no, they are not compelled to go hunting for a guard)

1) Yes they are compelled to go hunting for the guard, if not by rules, by honesty.

They are certainly not compelled to do this by the Rules.

Penalty Fares Rules 2002
7 Circumstances in which a penalty fare may not be charged
3. An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare under rule 6.2 if any of the following circumstances applied at the station where the person joined the relevant train.
a. There were no facilities available to issue the appropriate ticket or other authority for the journey which that person wanted to make.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

2) Travelling on a ticket routed via X and instead travelling via Y

2) Yes they should be PF'd as they have not travelled to the terms of their ticket.

A Penalty Fare must not be charged in these circumstances because it would infringe the passenger's right under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage to excess their fare.

National Rail Conditions of Carriage
13. The route you are entitled to take
(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/

3) Travelling on an Off Peak ticket at a time when that ticket is not valid

3) Yes they should be, for the same reasons as above.

A Penalty Fare must not be charged in these circumstances because it would infringe the passenger's right under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage to excess their fare.

Penalty Fares Rules 2002
7 Circumstances in which a penalty fare may not be charged
6. An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

National Rail Conditions of Carriage
12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket); or
(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Yorkie was asking my opinion, if I understand correctly, and that is just what I was doing. Quoting rules therefore is useless, and wastes your time.

 

[John @ home]

Yorkie was asking my opinion, if I understand correctly, and that is just what I was doing.

He asked

Do you now accept that people should not be issued penalty fares in the following circumstances?

It's not just that people should not be issued penalty fares in these circumstances. The rules state that that they must not be issued with penalty fares.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

My opinion (maybe putting it in bold will help people to see it) is that they should.

 

[ashworth]

Can anyone answer this question regarding Penalty Fares with EMT. Having always lived, and mainly travelled in an area without penalty fares I have no knowledge or experience of them.

In a few weeks time on a Sunday in January I will be travelling from London to Nottingham (via Grantham) with an Advance Purchase ticket. My train should train should arrive in Nottingham at 16.17. I will be hoping then to catch the 16.25 EMT service to Mansfield. It's a journey that I have done several times before and often it involves a very quick run over the bridge at Nottingham for the connection and occasionally I've missed it and had to catch a bus rather than wait another hour for the next train.

Whenever I have done this journey I have always paid for my Nottingham to Mansfield journey on the train. I was asked once why I hadn't purchased a ticket at Nottingham booking office, but as soon as I showed the conductor my ticket from London and explained that I hadn't had time there was no problem. Will I still be able to do this or will I now be charged a Penalty Fare? If that is the case I will just catch the bus and EMT will not get my fare at all! I am not purchasing my Nottingham to Mansfield ticket on my outward journey or in London because there have been so many occasions when I have just missed the connection by a few minutes in the past and why end up paying both the train and bus fare!

Another question. If I am no longer able to pay on the Mansfield train, without a penalty fare, could I get my ticket from the conductor on the train from Grantham to Nottingham just before I get off in Nottingham if I am sure that the train is running on time to get my connection?

 

[jon0844]

If I am travelling home after the last train from King's Cross has left, I may well be on a FCC train from St Pancras around 2am, or 4am, 5am to St Albans.

I won't have a ticket beyond Z6, and can't get an extension from a machine - or my season ticket discount.

So I travel and hope to see a FCC RPI that will sell me one, or perhaps someone at the gateline. If there are neither (and there never are) then what should I do? Write in afterwards to FCC and ask for them to invoice me?

I have also travelled to Welwyn Garden City from Old Street a few times and have to buy my extension from Hatfield at the other end, and they've let me go 'free' every time but once - when they wanted to PF me. When I explained they couldn't, and a colleague agreed, the lady that wanted to PF me did give me my discounted extension. I immediately gave her the ticket back and walked out! (Note, I will always approach the RPIs at the station if they are there).

 

[yorkie]

You can get your ticket from the conductor on the Grantham-Nottingham train. I'd say that if you ask and they are unable to sell it e.g. due to a faulty ticket machine, then you are perfectly entitled to buy on board the next train.

It's a grey area if you do not ask the conductor of the train to Nottingham if you are then liable to a PF from Nottingham to Mansfield or not. In theory, I'd say you shouldn't be as your journey didn't start in Nottingham, and you wouldn't have walked through any entrances displaying Penalty fare warnings.

 

[ashworth]

Thanks for your reply Yorkie.

As someone who has never tried to avoid paying for a journey I'm all for most ways of catching those people who try to travel without a valid ticket.
However, I do feel that in a case like mine where I want to pay the correct fare, and have proof that I have just arrived off a connecting service, there should be no problem when trying to purchase a ticket in a hurry to complete my journey.

 

[John @ home]

I will be hoping then to catch the 16.25 EMT service to Mansfield. ... Whenever I have done this journey I have always paid for my Nottingham to Mansfield journey on the train. ... Will I still be able to do this or will I now be charged a Penalty Fare?

The Nottingham to Worksop line is not a line over which Penalty Fares apply and Bulwell to Worksop (inclusive) are not Penalty Fares stations. Nottingham - Worksop trains are not Penalty Fares trains. See EMT's map here.

Nottingham station is a Penalty Fares station but, while you are at that station, in the circumstances you describe you will have a valid London to Nottingham ticket entitling you to be there.

 

[yorkie]

Looking at that (rubbish) map, it appears to be just the main line, with the Matlock trains added only as far as Belper, and also the Corby branch. The Erewash is mixed: Alfreton is included but Langley Mill isn't.

The leaflet also says "It is your responsibility to buy any additional tickets you
require to make your original ticket valid for your entire journey before you travel, if you do not you may be liable to a Penalty Fare." so they clearly are wanting to charge this fine, disguised as a fare, to people like ashworth, although in this case the line isn't included so it's not an issue. This is yet further evidence that PFs are an attack on innocent people yet are a cop-out for giving an easy option to not prosecute actual fare evaders.

They also seem to blame customers for queues, they appear to want all tickets to be bought online thus eliminating walk-on travel, and they also seem to claim that customers boarding at a station without ticket issuing facilities are obliged to go hunting for the guard. But I guess it's to be expected from a Brian Souter company.

 

[John @ home]

your journey didn't start in Nottingham, and you wouldn't have walked through any entrances displaying Penalty fare warnings.

The Penalty Fares Rules require that warning notices must be displayed so that at least one notice can be clearly seen by any passenger changing onto a penalty fares train from any other train.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

That requirement will be quite difficult to achieve for a passenger changing trains on the same platform island at Nottingham.

For the journey which ashworth proposes, none of the trains he will use are penalty fares trains.

 

[Old Timer]

..In a few weeks time on a Sunday in January I will be travelling from London to Nottingham (via Grantham) with an Advance Purchase ticket. My train should train should arrive in Nottingham at 16.17. I will be hoping then to catch the 16.25 EMT service to Mansfield.

Errrr, pardon me being thick but why are you not buying a through ticket ????

 

[yorkie]

Errrr, pardon me being thick but why are you not buying a through ticket ????

There aren't any AP tickets routed EC & Connections from London to Mansfield

 

[Old Timer]

There aren't any AP tickets routed EC & Connections from London to Mansfield

OK so why not buy one at origin ?

 

[Chris-P]

Errrr, pardon me being thick but why are you not buying a through ticket ????

because, as he said, he has missed it on occasion and caught the bus (rather than waiting an hour)