Penalty Fare - Purchased after Departure

[akasta]

Hi all,

After work, I traveled from Bournville station to Birmingham New Street station.
I forgot to buy my ticket and I noticed when I arrived to New Street station. And I bought the ticket and left the train.
Before leaving the platform, they stopped me and checked my ticket.
Then they give me penalty fine £100.
1- I gave my current address, but I am moving from that address in 1 week.
2- I have two name and two surname, I provided my one name and one surname. I saw that they wrote my name incorrectly but the surname was correct in the penalty fare ticket paper.
3- That day, my cat was sick and my partner went to veterinary around the time I was traveling. Also, I was sensitive due to war around the world and cried after leaving the work.
I had no bad intention and I think this penalty is not fair.

What should I do?

 

[Ecmlleeds]

You should pay the penalty fare, there's no grounds for really appealing it. Hope you're okay though!

 

[John R]

Can you please upload a copy of what you were given, so experts here can give appropriate advice. Ensure any identifying information, such as the reference number and any name or address is hidden, for your privacy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2025 ==

You should pay the penalty fare, there's no grounds for really appealing it. Hope you're okay though!

I see you’re fairly new here. It might be worth hanging around on the disputes board for a while and seeing what experts post before giving advice - as an example we always ask to see whether any documentation has been correctly issued, as failure to do so is quite common and can result in a successful appeal.

 

[AlterEgo]

At what time was your ticket purchased exactly? And at what time was the notice issued exactly? (Uploading a copy of the notice as @John R suggests will help with the latter!)

If it was issued by West Midlands Trains, appealing it can have issues, if you habitually buy just before exiting Birmingham New Street. Some passengers know the barriers can be open there and may chance not purchasing tickets unless and until they see the barriers are closed; if you do this regularly, the company will audit your ticket purchases and the scan data therein, and be able to tell how many times you are boarding a train without a valid ticket. It's an offence to do this at Bournville, which has ticket purchasing facilities. They may then threaten to take you to court for those past indiscretions.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all,

After work, I traveled from Bournville station to Birmingham New Street station.
I forgot to buy my ticket and I noticed when I arrived to New Street station. And I bought the ticket and left the train.
Before leaving the platform, they stopped me and checked my ticket.
Then they give me penalty fine £100.
1- I gave my current address, but I am moving from that address in 1 week.
2- I have two name and two surname, I provided my one name and one surname. I saw that they wrote my name incorrectly but the surname was correct in the penalty fare ticket paper.
3- That day, my cat was sick and my partner went to veterinary around the time I was traveling. Also, I was sensitive due to war around the world and cried after leaving the work.
I had no bad intention and I think this penalty is not fair.

What should I do?

Unfortunately penalty fare appeals have to show that the penalty fare - pf - was incorrectly issued. You can’t appeal to their better nature on the basis it isn’t fair you got one. Though there is no harm in trying if you wish.

You are required to have a valid ticket before you get on the train. A PF is therefore an appropriate action because you didn’t have one.

The sum is reduced by 50% if you pay it promptly. So don’t miss that deadline.

It won’t matter if you gave address details that will be out of date soon.

You have my sympathy but sorry if this isn’t the information you would have wanted to read.

 

[Haywain]

1- I gave my current address, but I am moving from that address in 1 week.

That won't stop you paying or appealing the Penalty Fare.

2- I have two name and two surname, I provided my one name and one surname. I saw that they wrote my name incorrectly but the surname was correct in the penalty fare ticket paper.

As above.

3- That day, my cat was sick and my partner went to veterinary around the time I was traveling. Also, I was sensitive due to war around the world and cried after leaving the work.

So, you had a bad day. It's not in the slightest bit relevant.

I had no bad intention and I think this penalty is not fair.

Your intentions are not relevant but a Penalty Fare Notice carries the option of appealing. I would not recommend doing so on the grounds of fairness though.

 

[akasta]

Can you please upload a copy of what you were given, so experts here can give appropriate advice. Ensure any identifying information, such as the reference number and any name or address is hidden, for your privacy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2025 ==


I see you’re fairly new here. It might be worth hanging around on the disputes board for a while and seeing what experts post before giving advice - as an example we always ask to see whether any documentation has been correctly issued, as failure to do so is quite common and can result in a successful appeal.

Please find the penalty fare ticket

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2025 ==

At what time was your ticket purchased exactly? And at what time was the notice issued exactly? (Uploading a copy of the notice as @John R suggests will help with the latter!)

If it was issued by West Midlands Trains, appealing it can have issues, if you habitually buy just before exiting Birmingham New Street. Some passengers know the barriers can be open there and may chance not purchasing tickets unless and until they see the barriers are closed; if you do this regularly, the company will audit your ticket purchases and the scan data therein, and be able to tell how many times you are boarding a train without a valid ticket. It's an offence to do this at Bournville, which has ticket purchasing facilities. They may then threaten to take you to court for those past indiscretions.

At what time was your ticket purchased exactly?

17:05

And at what time was the notice issued exactly?

17:12

if you habitually buy just before exiting Birmingham New Street.

I used to have swiftcard monthly for my work commute. I have paid £200 monthly and use Moor Street and New Street almost every day.
I recently cancelled because I am moving a very close location.
I don't have habit to buy just before exiting New Street.

 

[AlterEgo]

We need to see the time, issue date, and amount of penalty fare to ascertain its validity.

 

[John R]

Thank you. How much was the fare charged? Sometimes mistakes are made here too.

And for experts on the forum, is "Purchased after departure" a valid reason to issue a PF?

 

[akasta]

Thank you. How much was the fare charged? Sometimes mistakes are made here too.

And for experts on the forum, is "Purchased after departure" a valid reason to issue a PF?

The penalty fare is £100

 

[AlterEgo]

The penalty fare is £100

We need to know the date of issue, and the amount of fare charged, where it says "full single fare applicable".

 

[John R]

The penalty fare is £100

Sorry I mean the total amount, including the fare which you have redacted.

 

[Starmill]

You can’t appeal to their better nature on the basis it isn’t fair you got one. Though there is no harm in trying if you wish.

Technically the option of a compelling reasons appeal does exist, though it wouldn't be decided on at the first or second round appeals. I wouldn't bother with it personally as it has such a small chance of success as to be little more than a technicality.

 

[Pushpit]

The penalty fare is £100

Which will be £50 if paid within 21 days.

The reason for all the extra questions about the amount is that the complexities of fare structures is such that staff often make mistakes when entering the data into their gizmos. There are a lot of moving parts, not just in the figurative sense, and so from time to time we can say "that PF was incorrectly issued because they have overcharged the amount". That is a valid reason to appeal a PF, and last week there was an example of that in this forum. So much so that the appeal succeeded on the first attempt, which for that particular organisation was minor miracle in itself.

By appealing you delay paying the £50 + fare amount while the process goes on, but you must stick closely to the deadlines. If you want to minimise the risk of a prosecution in the courts, with things getting lost in the post and so on given the address issue, you should pay the £50 + fare amount ASAP but still then appeal - the early payment won't count against you. But unless there is an error in the PF calculations I don't see much basis for a successful appeal at the moment. The £50 penalty is just what you have to pay if you are forgetful in this scenario, otherwise everyone will be forgetful.

 

[furlong]

Yes, please show us full details of the ticket you purchased as well and confirm the time of the train that you were on. "Purchased after departure" is NEVER a valid reason in itself for imposing a penalty fare. That scenario is simply not covered by the current regulations. "Purchased after being asked to present ticket" would be, but that's not what's being alleged here - is it? If you had already paid the *correct fare* prior to the ticket inspection, as you are suggesting you had, then there are no grounds to make you pay for the journey a second time and you could attempt an appeal on that basis, that it was not issued in accordance with the regulations because you presented a valid ticket when asked to do so.

(Can you imagine boarding a train without a ticket, buying one from the guard on board, then arriving at the Birmingham gateline and being given a penalty fare and made to pay the fare all over again with a penalty on top? The method of purchase - guard or app - makes no difference to a ticket's validity. What tells you it is blatantly incorrect is that this penalty would mean the journey has been paid for twice over. Had they overhauled the regulations to cover this type of situation, I'd have expected the penalty to have been set at the fixed £100/£50 amount on its own, recognising that the fare was already paid - and I bet they'd even come with a mechanism for charging the penalty directly through the app - but they haven't yet brought these scenarios within the scope of Penalty Fares.)

 

[akasta]

I attached it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Where exactly on the station were you stopped? Was it upstairs at the barrier, or “before leaving the platform” as you say in the opening post? (It would be rare for there to be a platform block in my experience)

 

[akasta]

Where exactly on the station were you stopped? Was it upstairs at the barrier, or “before leaving the platform” as you say in the opening post? (It would be rare for there to be a platform block in my experience)

Before leaving the platform in New Street.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2025 ==

There are platform block to pass with your ticket in New Street station.

 

[AlterEgo]

Before leaving the platform in New Street.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2025 ==

There are platform block to pass with your ticket in New Street station.

Do you mean "There were inspectors on the platform as I came off the train", or do you mean "there is a ticket gate upstairs and I was stopped there"?

It's extremely unusual to be stopped *on the platform* at New Street. The platform is the bit downstairs where the trains arrive, the concourse is up the stairs, lift, or escalator, where the ticket barriers are.

 

[furlong]

What was the exact price of the ticket you bought?

What was the exact train you were on? For example, did it depart Bournville at 16:50? or 16\:59 (actually a minute late, 17:00)?

 

[Haywain]

What was the exact train you were on? For example, did it depart Bournville at 16:50? or 16\:59 (actually a minute late, 17:00)?

It couldn’t be the second of those as the PFN was issued (at 1712) before it arrived at New Street (at 1713).

 

[furlong]

RIght so the 16:50 then arriving 17:02 (leaving 17:06) and we have "And I bought the ticket and left the train." - but don't know which ticket - and "Before leaving the platform, they stopped me and checked my ticket." something I've never witnessed at that station - unless it meant upstairs. And a gap of 8 minutes.

But my point about the misconception that a Penalty Fare is imposed for not buying a ticket before boarding still stands - it is not. It is only imposed for not presenting a valid ticket after specifically being asked to do so. (Of course buying before boarding prevents this situation from arising.)

 

[Haywain]

Given the timings, I suspect that the OP only decided to buy a ticket on finding the barriers manned, and was seen to be doing so.

 

[John R]

I forgot to buy my ticket and I noticed when I arrived to New Street station. And I bought the ticket and left the train.

So given @Haywain's comment above, is that ordering "bought the ticket and left the train" correct, or you did you buy the ticket on seeing staff checking tickets at the station?

 

[AlterEgo]

What does the time stamp on the penalty fare refer to? The minute it was begun to be completed, or when it was finalised and printed?

 

[WesternLancer]

My view is that @akasta should pay this penalty fare, take advantage of the £50 prompt payment reduction, and hope they don’t investigate things further as I suspect they have done this before (not buying before boarding but being ‘reminded’ when they see an inspector or a barrier in action). I suspect the chances of further investigation are slim but I can't really see any good reason to appeal.

 

[SuspectUsual]

What does the time stamp on the penalty fare refer to? The minute it was begun to be completed, or when it was finalised and printed?

Its the time the transaction was completed on their device

 

[Starmill]

Given the timings, I suspect that the OP only decided to buy a ticket on finding the barriers manned, and was seen to be doing so.

Perhaps the OP can tell us if they bought the ticket before or after they went up the stairs / escalator / lift at Birmingham New Street.