Penalty fare notice

[island]

I suspect a court would not rule a notice invalid merely by virtue of a slight defect in the wording “you may be charged” vs “you may have to pay”; the principal of de minimis non curat lex applies.

Signage being entirely absent, however, is a different matter and that could more easily support an appeal.

 

[SuspectUsual]

One for the moral maze. Where’s Michael Buerk when we need him? Is it morally wrong to slap a penalty charge on a teenager? Is it morally wrong to try and avoid the penalty by pointing out the absence of a sign on an entrance said teenager didn’t use?

 

[packermac]

It will always be confusing if some fares can be purchased on a train and others can't. If there was a simple universal 'you must buy a ticket before you board', then there would be no confusion (and no excuses).

Quite agree but the industry does not help itself over ticketing.
Although I have not travelled since Covid, my local line Weymouth to Waterloo has TVM's at all stations between Weymouth and Bournemouth and some open booking offices. The guard/conductor whatever they are on SWR normally comes through before Bournemouth and asks if anyone needs a ticket and sells them one without a fuss, penalty fare etc. No idea what happens if you needed him and he was not visible when you get to your destination.
Why do penalty fares only exist in some areas not everywhere?
If that is the only route you normally travel by train then you would rightly think that is the way things are done, so you would expect the same to happen elsewhere in the country.
Rules should have the lowest common denominator and maybe that is not ticket no travel. I would not park a car in a car park with a broken ticket machine so why if the TVM is broken or has a queue why should people be allowed to circumvent it.
Of course confusing rules allows for the issue of penalty fares and fines, so someone benefits from that money. Especially if a TOC is allowed to invent things like a promise to pay that is only valid for one operator at multi operator served stations..

 

[Sheridan]

I would not park a car in a car park with a broken ticket machine so why if the TVM is broken or has a queue why should people be allowed to circumvent it.

You make a number of good points but I entirely disagree with this - if I’ve arrived at an open car park in good time and had a meeting at a nearby building, I would not try and find somewhere else to park and make myself late, but would note that the machine was faulty, contact the operator if possible, record the circumstances and leave my car in the car park. If no means of payment is provided but the car park is left open I think most people would find that reasonable.

 

[WesternLancer]

Basically the kids didn't arrive at the station early enough. But they were honest enough to try and buy a ticket at their destination. No way of knowing if that honesty was promoted by the presence of a barrier line at destination or not.

 

[hkstudent]

Basically the kids didn't arrive at the station early enough. But they were honest enough to try and buy a ticket at their destination. No way of knowing if that honesty was promoted by the presence of a barrier line at destination or not.

I think that has been a lot of reports in this forum saying Northern's Excess Fare window is actually a "trap" to honest passengers who were not able / didn't buy a ticket.

 

[Haywain]

I think that has been a lot of reports in this forum saying Northern's Excess Fare window is actually a "trap" to honest passengers who were not able / didn't buy a ticket.

You mean it's viewed by some as a trap. The intention of the window is clearly, from the actions we are aware of, to sell tickets to those who have come from stations without ticket issuing facilities and those using cash where only 'promise to pay' is available. People who could have purchased tickets but chose not to essentially trap themselves.

 

[30907]

You mean it's viewed by some as a trap. The intention of the window is clearly, from the actions we are aware of, to sell tickets to those who have come from stations without ticket issuing facilities and those using cash where only 'promise to pay' is available. People who could have purchased tickets but chose not to essentially trap themselves.

And given the reputedly remarkable number of travellers from Burley Park there at, it is not surprising that the RP staff take an interest.
However, we have had this discussion often enough in various contexts, and I don't think it helps the OP or her teenagers.

 

[Nottingham59]

If they had queued for tickets they would have missed the train. That was implied in the original post.

 

[furlong]

The ins-and-outs of what happened at the station on the day are frankly irrelevant if the train company has failed to install the signage that permits it to issue Penalty Fares from the station concerned. Under the current regulations this is treated as a simple matter of fact - a station is either compliant or it is not. (Any inappropriateness of the signage regulations should rightly be a matter for a different thread.) And in answer to the question about the precise wording - why does any train company take the chance of not using the prescribed words precisely? If it uses the right words there can be no argument but if it doesn't it might be challenged on that point in future and lose and leave itself open to the risk of thousands of enforceable claims for refunds.

 

[WesternLancer]

If they had queued for tickets they would have missed the train. That was implied in the original post.

But aren't there target queing times? OK the kids may not have got there in time for that, but when I've used a Northern TVM it takes me so long that it would not take many punters to be queuing before any reasonable time elapsed. The TVMs are way too complex IMHO, and def slower than a staffed ticket window for the avg journey.

 

[WesternLancer]

OP has not been back for a while so I'm starting to wonder if it was in part about 'getting this off their chest' rather than seeking detailed advice on best grounds for content of an Appeal? Though in my view there is good advice in the Thread if OP wanted to try to go down that route.

 

[MikeWh]

I would advise posters to read the sticky thread in this section before making comments, in particular the second post: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...g-in-disputes-prosecutions.77759/post-1582607.

A large number of posts have been deleted either for breaking the rules above or referring to deleted posts. Sadly a few decent points have gone along with this, but they weren't really relevant to this thread. If you feel that your comments warrant reposting, please feel free to do so in a new thread.