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Penalty Fare Notice - Feel it is unjust
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The permit to travel machine at Maidstone Barracks has been removed recently, presumably they've been removed from all stations along the line? I don't think anybody used them anyway.
Now that 466's are the normal rolling stock on the line where the guard can only do the doors from the rear cab they will have little opportunity to sell tickets so what option is there other than to pay at your destination?
Clearly it would be unreasonable to expect you to buy a ticket at Strood and miss your connection.
Ah, Maidstone Barracks, I remember a few altercations there some years ago when I was working in Maidstone.
Obvious fare dodgers confronting Revenue Inspectors (they weren't so brave then:-x) and then just walking away unchallenged.
I have to admit that I always used the permit to travel machines in the past when they were working.
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I think they make up their own rules.
Well they will if nobody ever takes them to task for doing so - and Tom Winsor is long gone.
It does seem that the industry has arranged for there to be so many distracting ways of getting individual problems resolved unofficially that most people who are wronged don't bother to invoke the formal procedures to see that the underlying problems are addressed and so the companies continue to get away with all manner of apparent breaches of these and other rules.
I think that the whole system, the way that it is working, is disingenuous to say the least, and I would suggest that not content with the revenue from purchased tickets, they are now deliberately building an obstacle course to ensnare mostly honest passengers into paying penalty fares.
There are problems, but I don't know that I'd agree that the whole system is broken.
Oh dear, I have received this reply from Transport Focus (I was put in touch with them through DfT).
"Hi Andy,
Thank you for getting back to me.
I should probably clarify the terms that have been agreed with Southeastern Railway (who in fact notify IPFAS/RPSS with regards to penalty fares issued to their passengers). Southeastern have stated that they will refund the fine in full (this includes administration fees) once a full payment has been made. I appreciate that you wish to pay the £1.28 only, however a refund will not be awarded unless the outstanding amount is paid in its entirety. To reiterate, if the fine is paid as it currently stands, you would not be at a financial loss here as the same amount will be repaid to you in the form of a cheque.
For further reference, IPFAS had declined your appeal on the basis that your connection at Strood would have permitted you enough time to purchase a ticket, however with just one minute to spare to catch your connecting train Southeastern agree that you would not have had enough time to pay for a ticket. It was on these grounds that they agreed to overturn the fine as a goodwill gesture.
I hope I have clarified any confusion here, and I hope you are able to pay the fine without any issues.
Kind regards,
Considering the penalty fare notice should never have been issued, I think that this is a less than satisfactory outcome.
They have made a mistake or rather deliberately ignored their own rules and regulations or the ones which they are bound by, and they are calling this a "goodwill gesture" - I don't think so!
As I now understand the situation, according to some sage advice I have had on this forum, if neither a ticket machine or permit to travel machine exist, then that station cannot be part of a penalty fare scheme - is that correct?
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No, I agree, but certainly the system which they are using on my line.
After all, I was originally told that I should seek out the conductor to buy a ticket. I did this yesterday, and the quite flustered/annoyed conductor told me that she didn't have a ticket machine.
I really appreciate the help which you and others have given to me on here, but ny frustration is levelled entirely at the Revenue staff, who seem to totally lack common sense.
"Hi Andy,
Thank you for getting back to me.
I should probably clarify the terms that have been agreed with Southeastern Railway (who in fact notify IPFAS/RPSS with regards to penalty fares issued to their passengers). Southeastern have stated that they will refund the fine in full (this includes administration fees) once a full payment has been made. I appreciate that you wish to pay the £1.28 only, however a refund will not be awarded unless the outstanding amount is paid in its entirety. To reiterate, if the fine is paid as it currently stands, you would not be at a financial loss here as the same amount will be repaid to you in the form of a cheque.
For further reference, IPFAS had declined your appeal on the basis that your connection at Strood would have permitted you enough time to purchase a ticket, however with just one minute to spare to catch your connecting train Southeastern agree that you would not have had enough time to pay for a ticket. It was on these grounds that they agreed to overturn the fine as a goodwill gesture.
I hope I have clarified any confusion here, and I hope you are able to pay the fine without any issues.
Kind regards,
Considering the penalty fare notice should never have been issued, I think that this is a less than satisfactory outcome.
They have made a mistake or rather deliberately ignored their own rules and regulations or the ones which they are bound by, and they are calling this a "goodwill gesture" - I don't think so!
As I now understand the situation, according to some sage advice I have had on this forum, if neither a ticket machine or permit to travel machine exist, then that station cannot be part of a penalty fare scheme - is that correct?
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No, I agree, but certainly the system which they are using on my line.
After all, I was originally told that I should seek out the conductor to buy a ticket. I did this yesterday, and the quite flustered/annoyed conductor told me that she didn't have a ticket machine.
I really appreciate the help which you and others have given to me on here, but ny frustration is levelled entirely at the Revenue staff, who seem to totally lack common sense.
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I agree it's a bit ridiculous, but the key thing to keep in mind is that you won't be out of pocket when all is said and done.
They've admitted they made a mistake and overturned the fine, that might be all you'll get without a lot more bother - is it *really* worth it?
As I understand it: yes and no. The SRA penalty fares policy says in part:
So while it's not recommended, it is possible to include a station with no ticketing facilities or PERTIS machine in a penalty fares area. It wouldn't make much sense to do do though, as they wouldn't be able to issue PFs to passengers who board there.
Discretion doesn't come into it.
If IPFAS has to be paid before the money can be claimed back from them, why doesn't the company itself make that payment?
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What I quoted from the policy earlier is a lot stronger than that:
If IPFAS has to be paid before the money can be claimed back from them, why doesn't the company itself make that payment?
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What I quoted from the policy earlier is a lot stronger than that:
Oh dear, contradiction in the same policy document... what are we to make of it? I wish they would have written 'may not want to' as 'must not'.
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Yes - that's the theory. In practice though, they might be allowed to continue with their existing scheme (minus the posters!) while getting the new updated one approved (which could takes weeks or months).
Llanigraham
On Moderation
I think that the whole system, the way that it is working, is disingenuous to say the least, and I would suggest that not content with the revenue from purchased tickets, they are now deliberately building an obstacle course to ensnare mostly honest passengers into paying penalty fares.
You criticise the system (again) but do not put forward a resolution!
And the total system is NOT broken.
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Pay it and they'll pay you back?
What king of stupidity is that? Generating more work and admin on both sides. Beggars belief. Just cancel the penalty IPFAS/Southeastern, you muppets.
As for the response from Transport Focus. I'd like to grab that person by the shoulders and shout at them "Penalty Fare, not fine" repeatedly until it sinks in.
:roll::roll::roll:
What king of stupidity is that? Generating more work and admin on both sides. Beggars belief. Just cancel the penalty IPFAS/Southeastern, you muppets.
As for the response from Transport Focus. I'd like to grab that person by the shoulders and shout at them "Penalty Fare, not fine" repeatedly until it sinks in.
:roll::roll::roll:
From a practical point of view I would pay it and wait for a refund to avoid the penalty fare escalating & giving you more pain. Then I would ask Southeastern to issue you with a letter confirming that you may pay at your destination when you board at x station without facilities when you do not have sufficient time to purchase at the exchange station. You then could show the letter to staff if you have problems again.
You may wish to escalate your experience when you have a copy of the above letter!
You may wish to escalate your experience when you have a copy of the above letter!
The outstanding amount was, and remains, the correct fare due. The PF is not due, and neither is the so-called "administration fees" relating to the invalid PF. If the OP wished to buy a return, as was his right under the contract for travel, as governed by the NRCoC, and ended up:
1) being improperly refused the sale without just reason;
2) being issued with an invalid PF instead, and;
3) later having to buy a single for the return journey at a few pence less than the cost of a return,
then, in my view, the fare due should be the difference between the fare paid for the single for the return journey and the return fare which should have been charged in the first place.
However, it could be argued that the OP technically owes two singles (albeit that the 'return' single is already paid), but this would be a profoundly unjust, even perverse, outcome, further penalising the honest passenger and allowing Southeastern to further profit from their own mistakes.
Personally, I would be disinclined to give them an interest-free loan- if anything, they should be paying the OP for your time. Given the other falsehoods in their past and current correspondence, I would also worry that they might renege on the promise to repay the excess.
I would send a cheque directly to Southeastern for the correct* fare due, reiterating that payment has already been offered and refused, including at the first reasonable opportunity to pay for your travel.
*assuming it is agreed that the fare due is £1.28, then send this, although it would seem odd for such a strange amount to be the fare due.
It seems perverse in the extreme that they are insisting that you pay the penalty fare before they then refund it. I can see no other way of describing this than as a demand for an interest free loan.
If it were me I would thank them for their time and submit a cheque for the fare due (was it £3.20?). I would ask for confirmation that the matter was now closed.
In the meantime you might wish to involve one or more of the local newspaper groups in the story. They should be able to grasp the ridiculous loan situation and they all love bashing southeastern for the abysmal service they provide.
If it were me I would thank them for their time and submit a cheque for the fare due (was it £3.20?). I would ask for confirmation that the matter was now closed.
In the meantime you might wish to involve one or more of the local newspaper groups in the story. They should be able to grasp the ridiculous loan situation and they all love bashing southeastern for the abysmal service they provide.
My thinking exactly. As Southeastern already control IPFAS (as I am led to believe) then they should just sort it out amongst themselves.
Basically, any passenger catching a train from my station, who does not hold a season ticket, could be liable for a penalty fare (under their ridiculous "rules") the moment they set foot onboard a train.
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The £1.28 is my single fare owed, less the postage it has cost me to contest this ridiculous situation.
As I have done absolutely nothing wrong, and they declined the original offer from me to pay for a return fare, after explaining the circumstances, the I am not going to offer anything else.
The two issues of the fare owed and your postage fees are separate and should not be conflated; one could lead to criminal proceedings and one is a civil dispute.
Morally, I think that you *ought* to be able to make such a deduction, and arguably more to reflect your time spent dealing with the matter, particularly when TOCs charge £80+ for sending a single letter, but advice given has to be based on the law as it is rather than the law as we might wish it to be.
As much as I sympathise with you, I really must recommend against making any such deduction from the fare owed, which is, based on your previous post, £3.20; indeed, following this course of action by withholding part of the fare due may lead to prosecution for fare evasion on the basis that the fare due is still unpaid, and that an attempt to underpay represents an intent to evade the fare actually due.
I instead recommend paying £3.20 directly to Southeastern in full and final settlement of the fare actually due.
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I certainly think that there are grounds for getting the postage back, and for an element of the cost in time of dealing with the situation, but I also agree that the two matters are separate at this point, and should remain so.
This is the wisest post I've read on this thread for a while.
Don't send them money that they are promising to refund; send them the cheque for the fare due. They have confirmed that the penalty fare is cancelled.
Don't refuse to send anything on the grounds of some sort of punishment to Southeastern, or any other reason: you open yourself up for other trouble on the fairly reasonable ground that two wrongs don't make a right.
Embarrassing the company in public is the best way forward. The flaw is not with the idea of the PF scheme; it is with Southeastern's failure to manage that scheme.
Thanks for your replies folks.
Having thought it over, I will make a cheque out to Southeastern for £3.20, detailing why that is the amount I am paying.
The problem as I see it, is that I have no idea who to send it to at Southeastern, and worry that the letters from RPSS and PFAS will keep on coming and the potential admin fees increase.
As an answer to Talltim, yes that was a copy and paste from the email sent to me by Chloe Barnes of TransportFocus, she did refer to it as a fine.
I am now wondering whose side Transportfocus are on.
Having thought it over, I will make a cheque out to Southeastern for £3.20, detailing why that is the amount I am paying.
The problem as I see it, is that I have no idea who to send it to at Southeastern, and worry that the letters from RPSS and PFAS will keep on coming and the potential admin fees increase.
As an answer to Talltim, yes that was a copy and paste from the email sent to me by Chloe Barnes of TransportFocus, she did refer to it as a fine.
I am now wondering whose side Transportfocus are on.
Transport Focus are, nominally, on the side of the passenger. However they have no teeth when it comes to challenging the TOCs and often just take what the TOCs tell them as gospel. Added to that is their woeful knowledge of the legislation and conditions that govern the interactions/contract between passenger and train operator. A prime example of that is referring to Penalty Fares as fines.
Do you still have the initial letters from Southeastern? I would post it to the address given there, with a letter outlining what the £3.20 is for and perhaps including a copy of correspondence confirming that Southern have agreed to overturn the fine.
You should probably also send copies of this communication to TransportFocus and IPFAS - ideally via email to stop those costs escalating (perhaps you could just send it to TF via email and ask them to forward it on to IPFAS?).
There is no limit to the number of appeals you can make (see DfT reference earlier up the thread) so a further appeal refuting the claim that you should have bought a ticket at the interchange quoting from the Penatly Fares policy and further including the new correspondence from SE showing that the company, by proposing a full refund, is, in effect, acknowledging that it erred in issuing it? (You could do that in parallel with sending the company the fare, if that's what you're choosing to do.)
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To Cuccir and Furlong, I have received absolutely no correspondence from Southeastern on this matter, I have sent letters to RPSS and IPFAS, and emails to Transport Focus.
This is absolutely doing my head in now, because I have done nothing wrong.
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This is the first part of the email which I received Transport Focus - I have not yet replied to it.
"I should probably clarify the terms that have been agreed with Southeastern Railway (who in fact notify IPFAS/RPSS with regards to penalty fares issued to their passengers). Southeastern have stated that they will refund the fine in full (this includes administration fees) once a full payment has been made. I appreciate that you wish to pay the £1.28 only, however a refund will not be awarded unless the outstanding amount is paid in its entirety. To reiterate, if the fine is paid as it currently stands, you would not be at a financial loss here as the same amount will be repaid to you in the form of a cheque."
This seems a bit bizarre to me actually, because I have done nothing wrong, so why should I have to pay the outstanding amount in "its entirety", if the penalty fare was unjustly levied?
I am not sure how to respond to this latest email.
This is absolutely doing my head in now, because I have done nothing wrong.
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This is the first part of the email which I received Transport Focus - I have not yet replied to it.
"I should probably clarify the terms that have been agreed with Southeastern Railway (who in fact notify IPFAS/RPSS with regards to penalty fares issued to their passengers). Southeastern have stated that they will refund the fine in full (this includes administration fees) once a full payment has been made. I appreciate that you wish to pay the £1.28 only, however a refund will not be awarded unless the outstanding amount is paid in its entirety. To reiterate, if the fine is paid as it currently stands, you would not be at a financial loss here as the same amount will be repaid to you in the form of a cheque."
This seems a bit bizarre to me actually, because I have done nothing wrong, so why should I have to pay the outstanding amount in "its entirety", if the penalty fare was unjustly levied?
I am not sure how to respond to this latest email.
That's exactly what I thought, in the circumstances wouldn't it be simpler for Southeastern just to waiver the few quid the OP owes?
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I think that the whole system, the way that it is working, is disingenuous to say the least, and I would suggest that not content with the revenue from purchased tickets, they are now deliberately building an obstacle course to ensnare mostly honest passengers into paying penalty fares.
It does make you wonder!
Permit to travel machines have apparently been removed from all stations on the Medway Valley Line and TVM's will be installed in due course, and they will probably be card payment only. In the meantime how is anybody supposed to purchase a ticket if the guard doesn't come down the train selling them?
It's probably the case that there's a button they can click to refund the entire penalty fee, and no button they can click to cancel it. So they've never considered any other way to do it.
Sadly, I see it all the time.
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