Penalty fare increase to £100

[AdamWW]

I note LNR's web page on PFs has been edited again (I think it was theirs that was wrong) and now again says you have to buy online if there's no facility at the station. This is clearly garbage and I've reported it to them AGAIN.

That is very disappointing.

I've seen similar with TfW on a sign on a faulty ticket machine.

Given that passengers can be given penalty fares or prosecuted for failing to understand ticketing rules properly, maybe there should be some kind of penalty for railway companies that don't understand their own rules?

 

[Starmill]

the passenger safeguards have been increased

I think that even you must recognise that this is a disputed claim, and not a statement of facts.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I was at Doncaster on Friday and the platform announcements were telling passengers to make sure they had a ticket before boarding the Hull Trains services.

I had the same at Banbury station this morning saying about PFs increasing, and to make sure you buy before you board.

 

[furlong]

It's beyond me why they never have proper consultation on the actual wording of changes. I think it would be perverse if the regulations required people to pay TWICE for their journey, so I think the word 'applicable' in "full single fare applicable for their journey" must be interpreted to account for the actual circumstances whenever it can be stretched to do so. Otherwise the passenger is left to offer the amount they believe is still due and challenge the train company to pursue them in the civil courts if they feel they are entitled to the rest of the "full single" fare. Highly unsatisfactory and avoidable.

 

[jon0844]

I know it's trivial, but why are the new PF warning posters so dull compared to the old ones?

Blue text doesn't stand out on the more dull yellow background as black did, and the top has a blue background instead of black that made the warning text stand out. Then there's the lack of boxes to more clearly show the rules.

Also the typeface... Isn't it what Thameslink used to use pre FCC?

 

[LowLevel]

That's true, its just unfortunate that they put people into that position by habitually selling tickets on the train for so many years.

Guards on the Nottingham - Worksop line have a hard enough existence without worrying about penalty fares.

The regulars know well enough the different between the guard and revenue protection, either RP staff need to be working up there consistently all hours of the day and night (they usually take police or security back up with them) or not.

The route is notorious for groups of youths using the train as a free taxi in the evenings and refusing to pay or engage, it's not unusual to find guards asking for tickets on the door and refusing boarding in normal circumstances.

Working as a lone guard there the best answer for your sanity and personal safety is to take money where offered and let the signage and revenue staff worry about penalty fares. Even mentioning them to someone often triggers a tirade of abuse even if you're not charging them so most have stopped bothered years ago.

 

[Silver Cobra]

For anyone who hasn't seen one yet, here is what the new Penalty Fare posters look like:



I do have to agree with jon0844 that the new posters don't catch my attention in the same way the old ones did.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That font is too "happy clappy" for a serious warning. It should be in a stark, basic font like Helvetica or Times Roman. Probably Helvetica.

I also agree the top bit should be black, not blue. Perhaps even add warning stripes down the side.

 

[BenS123]

I spent a few minutes designing a quick prototype of what I thought could be a 'more ideal' PF poster, inspired by the actual one in post #127

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, that's a lot better. Clear and mildly threatening-looking.

 

[Watershed]

I've just skimmed through this thread and I haven't seen the answer to this.

GWR, on their web page on the new penalty fare regulations (https://www.gwr.com/help-and-suppor...tm_content=EB1226872&utm_campaign=GWR_PEN_SER), say that
"If you buy a ticket that has restrictions, and/or a Railcard discount, you must ensure you adhere to any restrictions and have your Railcard with you; otherwise you’ll need to pay for your journey again at the full price."

There is no "could" in that statement, it says "need".

Does this mean that if I board a train with an invalid ticket due to peak restrictions, even if I'm not penalty fared I'm required to buy a new (anytime?) ticket rather than having it excessed?

Even if there's no ticket office at the station I board that could excess it for me?

No, it's incorrect; the NRCoT entitle you to obtain the excess onboard, regardless of whether there are ticket purchasing (or excessing) facilities available at your starting or intermediate interchange stations.

If that's what it means it is extremely badly phrased.

It's common for the section of TOC websites dealing with tickets etc. to be written by people who frankly don't have a clue what they're talking about. Predictably, there's all sorts of duff information floating about (such as the generalised claim that "Off-Peak tickets are valid from 09:30").

 

[AdamWW]

It's common for the section of TOC websites dealing with tickets etc. to be written by people who frankly don't have a clue what they're talking about. Predictably, there's all sorts of duff information floating about (such as the generalised claim that "Off-Peak tickets are valid from 09:30").

I suppose it matches the staff on the railways who also believe that sort of thing.

 

[ainsworth74]

I know it's trivial, but why are the new PF warning posters so dull compared to the old ones?

You guys have gotten new posters? I don't think we've got any up here. Hopefully no one tries issuing a PF in the meantime as if would be invalid. Not that your average passenger would be aware of this...

 

[jon0844]

You guys have gotten new posters? I don't think we've got any up here. Hopefully no one tries issuing a PF in the meantime as if would be invalid. Not that your average passenger would be aware of this...

They've got cards they're handing out to people here, suggesting a grace period.

 

[ainsworth74]

They've got cards they're handing out to people here, suggesting a grace period.

Blimey! New posters and cards! Are the streets paved with gold as well?

 

[Silver Cobra]

You guys have gotten new posters? I don't think we've got any up here. Hopefully no one tries issuing a PF in the meantime as if would be invalid. Not that your average passenger would be aware of this...

The new posters were put up at the Great Northern stations over the weekend. Both Biggleswade and Arlesey had the new posters up on Sunday when I passed through both stations (so the posters were up a day before the new penalty fare price came into effect).

 

[ainsworth74]

The new posters were put up at the Great Northern stations over the weekend. Both Biggleswade and Arlesey had the new posters up on Sunday when I passed through both stations (so the posters were up a day before the new penalty fare price came into effect).

I'll try remember to check but certainly yesterday there was no sign of new signs on Teesside or at least at the stations I use!

 

[RPI]

Whether its related or just coincidence, but literally everyone seems to have tickets today!

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I have noticed since the introduction of this, ticket checks (and very long announcements describing exactly what tickets are/are not valid amongst many other things) seem to be much more common on my WMR journeys between Wolverhampton/Birmingham. I think all the people I've seen doing it are "Senior Conductors" though, so maybe it's just coincidence that I'm getting those people on my journeys.

One senior conductor gave an older couple who got on at one of the local stations a right talking to about buying a ticket before boarding and the introduction of the new, higher penalty.

 

[Western Sunset]

If there was a nationwide consistent approach to ticketing, that might help. Also, a standard approach by staff when allowing passengers to deviate from the norm, by a written note of authorisation.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Who just happens to carry £100 these days?

Personally, I would like the ticketing system to be simpler, more transparent and the full range to be sold at TVM's (where ticket offices are closed) before "the railway" treats all passengers as criminals when they've not had the opportunities to buy the right tickets for their needs

For the chancers who get caught and don't carry/want to pay the £100, I suspect they will either become more aggressive or find more creative ways to avoid paying

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who just happens to carry £100 these days?

Who doesn't carry a card these days?

You don't have to pay it on the spot anyway. Even the thing about having to pay the fare on the spot no longer applies.

 

[Benjwri]

Who just happens to carry £100 these days?

Personally, I would like the ticketing system to be simpler, more transparent and the full range to be sold at TVM's (where ticket offices are closed) before "the railway" treats all passengers as criminals when they've not had the opportunities to buy the right tickets for their needs

For the chancers who get caught and don't carry/want to pay the £100, I suspect they will either become more aggressive or find more creative ways to avoid paying

If you're carrying the amount on you it would be the reduced 50% anyways, but the majority of people do carry phones with Apple/Google pay or cards, and I'd say it's more likely people will have the means to pay on the spot these days than they would in the past.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Who just happens to carry £100 these days?

Presumably the system is able to take payment on a credit/debit card? In which case the question becomes 'Who just happens to carry plastic these days?' - to which I suspect the answer is 'everyone who might have carelessly failed to get the right ticket'. And since one of the purposes of penalty fares is to deal quickly and without too much pain with those who make mistakes (but with enough pain to discourage people from making the same mistake again), leaving prosecutions as a route for intentional fare evasion, then if the question is as I've put it, the system will be working as intended.

 

[island]

Many authorised collectors carry card payment terminals, and they have also started to provide for fare evaders scanning a QR code on the penalty fare notice to pay on their phones.

 

[AdamWW]

Who doesn't carry a card these days?

You don't have to pay it on the spot anyway. Even the thing about having to pay the fare on the spot no longer applies.

But there are people for whom an unexpected £100 (or rather £50+(anytime?) fare) on their card would be a problem.

Many authorised collectors carry card payment terminals,

And while I hope it isn't many that do this, I have seen one insist to a passenger that they have no alternative but to pay on the spot using such a terminal.

I was tempted to intervene but as I wasn't absolutely sure of the rules I kept quiet.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

But there are people for whom an unexpected £100 (or rather £50+(anytime?) fare) on their card would be a problem.

Yeah, I'm sure there are... but there is a simple way to avoid this fate, and we all know what it is!

 

[AdamWW]

Yeah, I'm sure there are... but there is a simple way to avoid this fate, and we all know what it is!

To fully understand all the ticketing rules, never make a mistake, never be misled by incorrect information from staff and never be unfortunate enough to come across someone who misinterprets the rules and demands a penalty fare when in fact you're in the right?

Given the number of staff I've encountered who can't or won't understand even the simplest of ticketing rules, I think allowing them to demand £50+ payments on the spot would not be a good thing.

 

[Haywain]

I think allowing them to demand £50+ payments on the spot would not be a good thing.

As stated previously, it doesn't have to be paid on the spot.

 

[AdamWW]

As stated previously, it doesn't have to be paid on the spot.

I know. I stated it previously too.

And I think it should stay like that even though - as pointed out above - most people probably now have the means to pay on the spot if necessary.

I'm not so sure how new that is though - while it may not have been common to carry that much cash even when it was used much more than now, many people carried cheque guarantee cards for at least £50 (which the BoE tells me was the equivalent of £100 in 1991). So I think in the 80's you'd find lots of people on trains who could have paid the current level of penalty fares in real terms on the spot.