Penalty fare increase to £100

[Watershed]

£50 isn't that much when you consider rampant inflation, it can't be far off the spending power of £20 when it was first changed to that

The Bank of England inflation calculator says that £20 in 2005's money is equivalent to £36.44 in November 2022's money. Obviously the inflation that this calculator uses may be lower than the amount by which rail fares have gone up (and it is understandable that Penalty Fares should remain in some sort of proportion to rail fares), but even that doesn't come close to justifying £50, let alone £100. You could possibly argue £40 as being an inflationary increase, but no more than that.

It hasn't been carefully designed to minimise fare evasion or revenue protection costs - it's just a remnant of Shapps' obsession with threatening people with huge "fines" (c.f. the £10k FPNs for breaking various Covid related laws at different times).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It hasn't been carefully designed to minimise fare evasion or revenue protection costs - it's just a remnant of Shapps' obsession with threatening people with huge "fines" (c.f. the £10k FPNs for breaking various Covid related laws at different times).

It's totally in line with most car parking penalties, which involve evading a payment of a similar sum. I've supported that sort of level for years. £20 just isn't enough of a deterrent, while double the Standard Anytime fare can result in some silly sums on PF-operating IC operations like EMR.

 

[Watershed]

It's totally in line with most car parking penalties, which involve evading a payment of a similar sum. I've supported that sort of level for years. £20 just isn't enough of a deterrent, while double the Standard Anytime fare can result in some silly sums on PF-operating IC operations like EMR.

That's as may be, but there is no way this can be justified as a mere inflationary increase.

That being said, it's not realistic to expect Byelaw 18 to be scrapped (or, like Byelaw 17, made into an offence which attracts no fine and thus isn't worth prosecuting), and so I agree that this might be the least worst way of regularising revenue protection across the industry - but only if TOCs stop illegally prosecuting people after they have brought appeals.

 

[Starmill]

There would not be loads of tribunal hearings if the TOC won the first couple.

Very much a possibility, but the cost risk you take on for defending a claim still runs easily to hundreds of thousands or even £1 million, as it may go to the Appeal Tribunal and you'd need to be prepared for that in advance. You also have to pay your own legal costs up front. You may not get all of those costs back even if you win.

 

[CptDelayRepay]

I once saw someone jump over the side of the barriers at Guukdfods railway station. There is a clear plastic screen at this point.

Nothing was done.

As for 1st fare edvaders. I imagine a lot of that does on between East Croydon and London Victoria during the morning commute into London. That is even take into account the fact some of the trains with first class carriages are only standard class in the timetable.

As someone who has recently moved to London (Zone 3) and sometimes gets a Southern train (usually off-peak) into Victoria/Clapham Jct, what are the rules around 1st on these services? They show as standard only on the timetable, and so I have always assumed that it is declassified for these routes. In my case it would be either the London Bridge - Victoria or West Croydon - Victoria trains. I have sat myself in 1st (not that there seems to be much of a difference) on these a couple of times, but I just tap in/out at the appropriate station which I'm guessing is considered a standard ticket.

 

[infobleep]

As someone who has recently moved to London (Zone 3) and sometimes gets a Southern train (usually off-peak) into Victoria/Clapham Jct, what are the rules around 1st on these services? They show as standard only on the timetable, and so I have always assumed that it is declassified for these routes. In my case it would be either the London Bridge - Victoria or West Croydon - Victoria trains. I have sat myself in 1st (not that there seems to be much of a difference) on these a couple of times, but I just tap in/out at the appropriate station which I'm guessing is considered a standard ticket.

Some people, myself included, think these are standard class services.

Others think they are still first class, although not advertised as such and you should ask permission of the guard before sitting there. Also, they could lock them out of use if they wanted to. That's just going on what I've read in other threads on the subject. I don't have them to hand.

When doing this though you need to check to ensure the train isn't running with first class. For examole last year on one Sunday, trains from Epsom Downs to London were showing as having first class on Rral Time Trains. This surprised me but I sat in standard class as a result. Had I not checked I may well have sat in first class.

 

[Bikeman78]

I find it depends on where on Southern you are. I regularly go from Appledore down to Littlehampton or Portsmouth that's normally 4 trains. it would be unusual not to be checked at least twice in each direction.

On a recent trip to ride on 313s, only one guard checked tickets. He managed to check the whole train twice between Chichester and Brighton, so it can be done. I agree that guards on 171s do usually walk through the train.

The only time I see OBS on 377s on the Brighton main line is if I happen to sit near the door they are loitering by. During the dispute, the RMT thought that the downgrading to OBS was a stepping stone to getting rid if the second member of staff. From my observations, the OBS are going all out to make that a reality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only time I see OBS on 377s on the Brighton main line is if I happen to sit near the door they are loitering by. During the dispute, the RMT thought that the downgrading to OBS was a stepping stone to getting rid if the second member of staff. From my observations, the OBS are going all out to make that a reality.

It is very frustrating to see railway staff in threatened roles seemingly encouraging their own downfall, but we see it all over the place

 

[Bikeman78]

Some people, myself included, think these are standard class services.

Others think they are still first class, although not advertised as such and you should ask permission of the guard before sitting there. Also, they could lock them out of use if they wanted to. That's just going on what I've read in other threads on the subject. I don't have them to hand.

When doing this though you need to check to ensure the train isn't running with first class. For examole last year on one Sunday, trains from Epsom Downs to London were showing as having first class on Rral Time Trains. This surprised me but I sat in standard class as a result. Had I not checked I may well have sat in first class.

There are no guards to ask because the metro trains are all DOO. The seats are the same so I wouldn't bother unless the train was full. I don't think first class fares exist for a lot of journeys so that part of the train is pointless.

Having said that, I'd be unimpressed if a revenue inspector tried to PF me. Easy enough to take a screenshot of RTT which shoes the train as being standard class only.

 

[infobleep]

There are no guards to ask because the metro trains are all DOO. The seats are the same so I wouldn't bother unless the train was full. I don't think first class fares exist for a lot of journeys so that part of the train is pointless.

Having said that, I'd be unimpressed if a revenue inspector tried to PF me. Easy enough to take a screenshot of RTT which shoes the train as being standard class only.

I didn't think all the trains were DOO but perhaps I'm wrong.

 

[Thedodger]

According to the Bank of England, £20 in 2005 is equivalent to £32 today, so it has tripled (adjusted for inflation) if you don’t pay within 14 days and is still 60% higher even if you do

 

[CE142]

Telling someone that they may be fined £100 is going to lead to more conflict than telling someone that they may be fined £20....
Whether you agree with Penalty Fares or not!

 

[the sniper]

It is very frustrating to see railway staff in threatened roles seemingly encouraging their own downfall, but we see it all over the place

I think the likes of Peter 'get the hell out of my industry' Wilkinson, whether intentionally or not, lumbered the Guard & OBS grade with a dead man walking culture. But also the cutting of supporting (none Guard) revenue protection efforts and a lack of consequences for persist offenders and anti-social behaviour in places, the obligation to avoid conflict as the only solution, coupled with a seemingly general industry indifference towards anything but the easiest revenue collection, have broken the old system. The character of the people recruited into the grade has changed over time too.

 

[[.n]]

I once saw someone jump over the side of the barriers at Guukdfods railway station. There is a clear plastic screen at this point.

Nothing was done.

As for 1st fare edvaders. I imagine a lot of that does on between East Croydon and London Victoria during the morning commute into London. That is even take into account the fact some of the trains with first class carriages are only standard class in the timetable.

whilst East Croydon to Victoria was one of the instances I was thinking about - the other one was Waterloo - Winchester (morning and evening)

 

[RPI]

It seems that the opportunity has arisen for the GWR scheme to be somewhat standardised from Monday, the new PF map shows that apart from South Wales (still ongoing) all stations that have facilities have been made PF stations. The whole Falmouth branch (except Perranwell which has no facilities), Okehampton, Barnstaple, between Exeter and Axminster and St Ives.

 

[Class800]

It seems that the opportunity has arisen for the GWR scheme to be somewhat standardised from Monday, the new PF map shows that apart from South Wales (still ongoing) all stations that have facilities have been made PF stations. The whole Falmouth branch (except Perranwell which has no facilities), Okehampton, Barnstaple, between Exeter and Axminster and St Ives.

@RPI what's the situation with Starcross? It never had any facilities

 

[RPI]

@RPI what's the situation with Starcross? It never had any facilities

Its not a PF station. Same as Dawlish Warren, Ivybridge, all of the intermediate stations on the Barny line and St James Park, Polsloe Bridge, Exton, Lympstone Commando and Lympstone Village.

 

[Class800]

Its not a PF station. Same as Dawlish Warren, Ivybridge, all of the intermediate stations on the Barny line and St James Park, Polsloe Bridge, Exton, Lympstone Commando and Lympstone Village.

Thanks

Also, everyone, between Exeter and Axminster, well some of those machines don't work a fair amount of the time, don't accept cash, don't sell some tickets e.g. Devon Day Ranger (or even ALR!) - so hoping GWR will continue to accept buy on board in such circumstances (if you can't buy the ticket you need from machine) as SWR have always done.

 

[Watershed]

It seems that the opportunity has arisen for the GWR scheme to be somewhat standardised from Monday, the new PF map shows that apart from South Wales (still ongoing) all stations that have facilities have been made PF stations. The whole Falmouth branch (except Perranwell which has no facilities), Okehampton, Barnstaple, between Exeter and Axminster and St Ives.

That's a big change for the likes of the Barnstaple and Okehampton lines, which go from being Buy on Board to Penalty Fare routes. Whilst all of the intermediate stations remain excluded from the Penalty Fares scheme, Byelaw 18 now applies as there's no longer standing permission to buy on board.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...some of those machines don't work a fair amount of the time, don't accept cash, don't sell some tickets e.g. Devon Day Ranger (or even ALR!)...

Local day rangers are one thing, but do any TVM's, anywhere on the GB rail network, sell All Line Rovers?

 

[Man_with_beard]

Using a time like this to increase penalty charges when people are struggling and when services are being cancelled on a day to day basis is disgusting and appalling behaviour from the government and TOCs.

 

[RPI]

Thanks

Also, everyone, between Exeter and Axminster, well some of those machines don't work a fair amount of the time, don't accept cash, don't sell some tickets e.g. Devon Day Ranger (or even ALR!) - so hoping GWR will continue to accept buy on board in such circumstances (if you can't buy the ticket you need from machine) as SWR have always done.

No different to the current scheme in the rest of Devon, the PF is just another tool to deal with ticketless travel.

Where a passenger can't get their desired ticket we happily sell it to them on board.

That's a big change for the likes of the Barnstaple and Okehampton lines, which go from being Buy on Board to Penalty Fare routes. Whilst all of the intermediate stations remain excluded from the Penalty Fares scheme, Byelaw 18 now applies as there's no longer standing permission to buy on board.

Its only really Barnstaple and Okehampton themselves, Barnstaple is overdue really as the station has better ticket issuing facilities than most other stations in Devon and people are pretty good there too.

Okehampton will be difficult to PF as there is just a card only TVM.

Again, it allows things like forgotten railcards, adult on child ticket etc to be dealt with too.

We are a small team in Exeter and I like to think we're knowledgeable and fair when it comes to implementing and enforcing ticketing issues.

 

[AlterEgo]

Using a time like this to increase penalty charges when people are struggling and when services are being cancelled on a day to day basis is disgusting and appalling behaviour from the government and TOCs.

On the flip side it might encourage people to actually buy a ticket, which isn't a bad thing.

 

[RPI]

On the flip side it might encourage people to actually buy a ticket, which isn't a bad thing.

Yes absolutely

Let's also not forget that with the higher Penalty Fare we may actually see less people reported for prosecution for more minor offences.

Thats purely me speculating but its a fair assumption.

 

[Class800]

We are a small team in Exeter and I like to think we're knowledgeable and fair when it comes to implementing and enforcing ticketing issues.

Would agree definitely. I feel safe travelling in the south west. Unlike in Northern land!

I've got a potential ALR starting unstaffed station in East Devon coming up, and feel OK about it, if it was an unstaffed station in Yorkshire I'd be thinking about whether it's doable at all

 

[Man_with_beard]

On the flip side it might encourage people to actually buy a ticket, which isn't a bad thing.

It will do JACK to encourage people to buy a ticket. There are barriers at stations that can catch the fare dodger out. Maybe act on why people are driven into fare dodging in the first place may encourage them to buy a ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

It will do JACK to encourage people to buy a ticket. There are barriers at stations that can catch the fare dodger out.

There are no barriers at the vast majority of stations. Your location is set to Scarborough. That's a reasonably sized station with no ticket barriers and far from uncommon on the network. In any case, barriers are really there to check *if* you have. ticket, not necessarily the right one for your journey. Barriers at Milton Keynes will open with a Bletchley to MK ticket, but you might not have actually come from Bletchley.

Maybe act on why people are driven into fare dodging in the first place may encourage them to buy a ticket.

Fare *dodging* is dishonest and many people choose to do it because they have factored in the £20 penalty fare as an occupational hazard ("I will get away with it 30 times, on the one time I get caught without a ticket I have still saved money"). The increase to £100/£50 will make this sort of activity much less attractive.

Figuring out the societal causes behind what makes people bunk their fares isn't the railway's problem.

 

[Haywain]

Maybe act on why people are driven into fare dodging in the first place may encourage them to buy a ticket.

Mostly, they are driven by the idea that they can get away with it and it won't cost much if they get caught. People who can't afford the fares will usually look for an alternative way of travelling.

 

[Man_with_beard]

There are no barriers at the vast majority of stations. Your location is set to Scarborough. That's a reasonably sized station with no ticket barriers and far from uncommon on the network. In any case, barriers are really there to check *if* you have. ticket, not necessarily the right one for your journey. Barriers at Milton Keynes will open with a Bletchley to MK ticket, but you might not have actually come from Bletchley.


Fare *dodging* is dishonest and many people choose to do it because they have factored in the £20 penalty fare as an occupational hazard ("I will get away with it 30 times, on the one time I get caught without a ticket I have still saved money"). The increase to £100/£50 will make this sort of activity much less attractive.

Figuring out the societal causes behind what makes people bunk their fares isn't the railway's problem.

And assaults on staff members? Do you think there will be a rise or drop in abuse and assaults?

 

[AlterEgo]

And assaults on staff members? Do you think there will be a rise or drop in abuse and assaults?

It's hard to say. It may be that disposing of matters through an appealable and regulated Penalty Fare instead of cautioning people and interviewing them for prosecution reduces the incidence of assault. In any case, whether catching fare dodgers results in more or less abuse is not as pressing a concern as actually collecting the proper fares for the railway, which you and I subsidise through both the fare box and our tax.