Penalty Fare - Help needed please

[Maudymumfuzzle]

Hi there,
My son travels between Manchester and Kidsgrove every few months and has always paid for his fare on the train when the ticket collectors have come round. A couple of days ago he was travelling between Congleton and Kidsgrove (£4 fare) and was issued with a penalty fare notice because the person checking tickets that day was a guard and couldn’t issue tickets he said. He advised my son to appeal.
My son was absolutely mortified as he’d been waiting at Congleton station with time to spare so could easily have purchased a ticket, he can’t understand how he’s always been able to pay onboard the train until that day.
Can anyone advise if things have changed recently? (If they have and we’ve missed something then I have no issue paying this, I know we all have busy lives and I’m making no excuses but our family has recently been through some extremely difficult times and I haven’t kept up to date with much other than what’s been going on with us )
If anyone can advise the best course of action I’d really appreciate it, even if that’s to simply make payment.
Thanks so much for your time
M x

 

[Watershed]

It's long been the law that you must buy your ticket before boarding, if there are facilities to do so. I can't say for certain when ticket machines were installed at Kidsgrove or Congleton stations, but it must have been at least 5 years ago, if not longer.

Northern rolled out Penalty Fares across their network around 2018-20 and so there is now signage warning you that you must buy before you board, although evidently this wasn't sufficiently prominent for your son to notice it.

Unfortunately your son has been lulled into a false sense of security by being sold a ticket onboard the train on previous occasions. Conductors/guards can only sell a ticket or take details for prosecution, they can't take any 'in between' steps. They generally tend not to warn people that they have to buy before they board - as far as they're concerned, they'd probably prefer that people buy on board as they get commission on such sales. By contrast, Revenue Protection Inspectors or similar generally only issue Penalty Fares or take details for prosecution, and it sounds like your son encountered one of these on his latest trip.

You can of course appeal the Penalty Fare, but simply not knowing the rules won't be a valid ground of appeal.

 

[jfollows]

Here is a recent thread discussing the rules for on-train ticket purchases: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-are-the-rules-on-on-train-ticket-purchases.244743/
There may be some relevant background reading covered in this other thread.

 

[Llanigraham]

This shows there are ticket machines, and a ticket office open in the mornings.

National Rail Enquiries - Station facilities for Congleton

Discover Congleton Rail Station. Getting to and from, buying and collecting tickets, staffing, facilities, accessibility & mobility access.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[Maudymumfuzzle]

Thank you both for the replies it’s very much appreciated. I think he’s been very lucky then in that case as he’s traveled each time and been able to pay onboard, it hardly seems fair that they were handing out these penalties on the 22nd and just a day later his friend traveled the same route and paid on the train.
I’ll get it paid up and at least then it’s sorted, lesson learned albeit an expensive one. Huge thanks again for taking the time to reply
M x

 

[Kite159]

Thank you both for the replies it’s very much appreciated. I think he’s been very lucky then in that case as he’s traveled each time and been able to pay onboard, it hardly seems fair that they were handing out these penalties on the 22nd and just a day later his friend traveled the same route and paid on the train.
I’ll get it paid up and at least then it’s sorted, lesson learned albeit an expensive one. Huge thanks again for taking the time to reply
M x

Just remember the next time your son is caught by a RPI, if they see he already has had a penalty fare issued they could go to the next step of prosecution.

 

[Maudymumfuzzle]

Just remember the next time your son is caught by a RPI, if they see he already has had a penalty fare issued they could go to the next step of prosecution.

Thanks for the info, as mentioned lesson learned. It certainly wasn’t intentional, he’s simply a creature of habit and was doing what he’d always done. There definitely won’t be a next time, he’s not in the habit of evading fares and had his payment ready to make on the train as he had done on every other occasion.

 

[spag23]

And get your son to warn his friends. Paying on the train versus penalising is apparently at the discretion (whim?) of the staff, with no regard as to what they did the day before (or after).

 

[Parham Wood]

It is disgusting in my opinion that the railway does very little to prevent its staff selling tickets on board and creating a false sense of correct practice. I know it is no excuse for not knowing the ticketing rules but we have seen so many times on this forum such instances and nothing is done about. To have a pupil sold a ticket the very next day takes the biscuit. I am all for a gentle reminder say at the beginning of term and lea way given but this practice is just evil. It shows poor management as well. It should be obvious from the ticket sales statistics to management that this is going on and should be dealt with.

 

[spag23]

It is disgusting in my opinion that the railway does very little to prevent its staff selling tickets on board and creating a false sense of correct practice.

Agreed. The railway companies could easily make the position clear and act consistently. But that would stem their handy income stream.

 

[furlong]

If your son was previously sold tickets on board without being warned not to do this again, then can you put together evidence to prove this? Do you still have those tickets? Was there any printing about Penalty Fares on them and if so didn't the person who sold them point this out?

You should appeal on those grounds (and others) - train companies are only supposed to sell tickets on board if they warn the purchaser that a Penalty Fare could have been issued. There's an old SRA document that explains this.

SRA Policy:

Selling tickets on penalty fares trains
4.34 The basic principle of any penalty fares scheme is that passengers must buy their tickets before they get on their train. If passengers find that they can buy their ticket on the train from the conductor or guard, it undermines this message. For this reason, we will not allow tickets to be sold on penalty fares trains unless either:
a) the on-train staff are trained as, and act as, authorised collectors, so they can charge a penalty fare to any passenger who is liable for one; or
b) the on-train staff issue a printed penalty fares warning, as well as a ticket, to any passenger who is liable to a penalty fare, and draw the passenger’s attention to the warning.

Train companies never seemed to like that and often ignored it. SRA functions moved into the DfT, and then Penalty Fares got revised a bit, but the SRA's underlying legal reasoning there should still be applicable, so you should still try to hold train companies to this standard - or force them to set out their current position on this matter and then challenge the DfT (through your MP if need be) to explain any change in stance. (The underlying technical issue is that a Penalty Fare is an alternative to a prosecution and a prosecution in such circumstances might be challenged as an abuse of process if the train company was behaving in a way that encouraged that law to be broken.)

Also check the signage at the station and appeal on those grounds too - many stations pay no more than lip-service to the signage rules. Clearly the signage didn't have the required effect.

 

[skyhigh]

Was there any printing about Penalty Fares on them and if so didn't the person who sold them point this out?

All Northern 'bog roll' paper stock has a penalty fare warning printed on the reverse.

 

[Haywain]

All Northern 'bog roll' paper stock has a penalty fare warning printed on the reverse.

And there are clear Penalty Fare notices to be seen on Google Street View at the entrances to both Kidsgrove (May 2019 images) and Congleton (Nov 2021) stations.

 

[alistairlees]

And there are clear Penalty Fare notices to be seen on Google Street View at the entrances to both Kidsgrove (May 2019 images) and Congleton (Nov 2021) stations.

Which are routinely ignored by rail staff - so why shouldn't customers do the same?

 

[wilbers]

All Northern 'bog roll' paper stock has a penalty fare warning printed on the reverse.

Its printed multiple times, and in red no less, so essentially unmissable.

 

[Haywain]

Its printed multiple times, and in red no less, so essentially unmissable.

And yet...

 

[fandroid]

Who reads the reverse of a ticket? When Ive ever done that in the past it's only ever had some sad little advert on it, so I really don't bother now

 

[najaB]

Who reads the reverse of a ticket? When Ive ever done that in the past it's only ever had some sad little advert on it, so I really don't bother now

Failing to read the rules is not, to the best of my knowledge, a valid grounds for an appeal.

 

[kristiang85]

Failing to read the rules is not, to the best of my knowledge, a valid grounds for an appeal.

That it might be, but would it be reasonable to expect a passenger to read the back of a ticket they've been sold without problem by a member of staff and been told it's all fine on multiple occasions?

 

[Bertie the bus]

That it might be, but would it be reasonable to expect a passenger to read the back of a ticket they've been sold without problem by a member of staff and been told it's all fine on multiple occasions?

Can you point out where the OP has stated their son has been verbally informed buying on the train was fine on any, never mind multiple, occasions?

 

[AlterEgo]

Can you point out where the OP has stated their son has been verbally informed buying on the train was fine on any, never mind multiple, occasions?

Well, if someone is routinely sold a ticket onboard without warning that it isn't OK, that is tantamount to the same.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It isn't the same thing at all (trying using they didn't say no so I took it as a yes in other areas and see how far it gets you) and while I can fully believe the OP's son was issued tickets with a warning on the back but without direction from the guard to read it I don't believe, and they have not stated, that they have been directly told to ignore the warning because everything is fine.

 

[Haywain]

It isn't the same thing at all (trying using they didn't say no so I took it as a yes in other areas and see how far it gets you)

This is just silly. Ignorance of the law is not a defence against breaking the law. This is not a case of rape where consent is a key component of the offence having been committed. In this case the Penalty Fare will have been received after passing multiple warning signs and receiving further multiple warnings, albeit the latter in written form.

 

[kristiang85]

It isn't the same thing at all (trying using they didn't say no so I took it as a yes in other areas and see how far it gets you) and while I can fully believe the OP's son was issued tickets with a warning on the back but without direction from the guard to read it I don't believe, and they have not stated, that they have been directly told to ignore the warning because everything is fine.

To any ordinary person being sold a ticket with no extra comment, especially to someone who doesn't know the ins and outs of the railway, is confirmation that what they are doing is ok to do. No reasonable person will expect the passenger to think "oh I wonder if there is anything written on the reverse to say that the transaction that just happened is wrong".

A member of staff selling tickets on a train should each time say "you should have the ticket beforehand, as officially I should be writing you up for travelling without a ticket. Read the terms and conditions on the ticket and the website if you are in doubt" or words to that effect.

Clearly it is problem as there are so many cases of this on this forum. It does feel like some guards happily do it to earn commission (fine), and TOCs don't tighten the policy on this as they make a nice little earner from penalty fares.

 

[najaB]

That it might be, but would it be reasonable to expect a passenger to read the back of a ticket they've been sold without problem by a member of staff and been told it's all fine on multiple occasions?

In a word: yes.

I understand the argument that a consumer shouldn't be held to terms which are hidden or deliberately made difficult to find, but in this case the only effort needed to view the warning is literally to just turn the ticket over.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is just silly. Ignorance of the law is not a defence against breaking the law. This is not a case of rape where consent is a key component of the offence having been committed. In this case the Penalty Fare will have been received after passing multiple warning signs and receiving further multiple warnings, albeit the latter in written form.

But consistency is the key. Buying on board is entirely normalised in many parts of the country, sometimes because of a lack of payment opportunities and sometimes because, you know, they guard just wants to sell a ticket in a PF area. It's like watching a film and paying £5 on exiting every time - only for the 50th time you visit the cinema there's a person with a hi vis at the screen door taking your details and charging you £100 for not using the machines or kiosk on your way in.

No other industry would normalise such behaviour and then criminalise it.

 

[najaB]

No other industry would normalise such behaviour and then criminalise it.

Penalty fares are not a criminal sanction.

 

[AlterEgo]

Penalty fares are not a criminal sanction.

Yes, the OP's son should consider themselves lucky that they were in fact penalty fared and not prosecuted in the magistrates' court.

 

[kristiang85]

In a word: yes.

I understand the argument that a consumer shouldn't be held to terms which are hidden or deliberately made difficult to find, but in this case the only effort needed to view the warning is literally to just turn the ticket over.

I really don't think when you're sold something in person it is reasonable to expect to read Ts&Cs unless you're explicity told to, unlike online where you check a box to acknowledge you've read them. Most people assume all the information they need is on front of the ticket; I've certainly never thought to read the back of the thing.

And even if they *did* read it, they'd think "oh it must be generic blurb and this transaction was acceptable on my route, given I was sold the ticket without comment".

I really think TOCs need to crack down on staff doing this and effectively misinforming passengers for the future, even if the intentions are good on that staff member in question.

 

[najaB]

I really don't think when you're sold something in person it is reasonable to expect to read Ts&Cs unless you're explicity told to, unlike online where you check a box to acknowledge you've read them. Most people assume all the information they need is on front of the ticket; I've certainly never thought to read the back of the thing.

Consumer law wouldn't agree.