Penalty Fare for Starting Short on Off-Peak Day Return

[boxy_montage]

Hello everyone, I would need your advice on a West Midlands Train Penalty Fare Notice I received on 30 Aug. I bought a off-peak day return ticket with a 26-30 railcard from Coventry to Birmingham New Street (any permitted route) at 12:19pm. I started my journey in Tile Hill at 12:22pm (according to ontimestrains). Tile Hill is an intermediate station between Coventry and Birmingham and the ticket I purchased allowed me to start or break at any intermediate station.

Shortly after I boarded the train, an inspector asked for my ticket and railcard. I showed both to the inspector and he said nothing and proceeded to check other passengers’ tickets. Several minutes later, the inspector came back and waved another inspector towards me and left again. The second inspector checked my ticket and railcard and accused me of purchasing the ticket after the departure. I explained to the officer that I boarded the train in Tile Hill, not Coventry and purchased the ticket before boarding. However, the inspector would not listen to me and issued me a penalty notice of £100+£6.1. I gave my address and date of birth after the inspector threatened to call the police and it was my first time being accused of fare evasion.

When I arrived in Birmingham New Street, I could not use the barrier and had to ask the staff for help but they let me through after seeing my ticket. On my inward trip to Tile Hill, I was stopped by the barrier (showing “seek assistance”) and had to ask the staff for help again.

The penalty notice was issued for “No ticket” even though I believe I had the valid ticket. It had an origin station of Coventry even though I only boarded the train in Tile Hill. I checked my ticket against the RSP6 decoder and bank records and both showed I purchased the ticket at 12:19pm before the train had even arrived in Tile Hill. I checked my ticket against BRFares and Restriction Code (GF) and they showed no restrictions on short start at an intermediate station. I understand that the train departed from Coventry before I purchase the ticket. However, I only boarded the train in Tile Hill after the purchase so the ticket should be valid at the time.

I’ve attached the penalty fare notice here. Please could you advise me of my grounds for appeal? Thank you very much!

 

[tatitiliti]

Hello everyone, I would need your advice on a West Midlands Train Penalty Fare Notice I received on 30 Aug. I bought a off-peak day return ticket with a 26-30 railcard from Coventry to Birmingham New Street (any permitted route) at 12:19pm. I started my journey in Tile Hill at 12:22pm (according to ontimestrains). Tile Hill is an intermediate station between Coventry and Birmingham and the ticket I purchased allowed me to start or break at any intermediate station.

Shortly after I boarded the train, an inspector asked for my ticket and railcard. I showed both to the inspector and he said nothing and proceeded to check other passengers’ tickets. Several minutes later, the inspector came back and waved another inspector towards me and left again. The second inspector checked my ticket and railcard and accused me of purchasing the ticket after the departure. I explained to the officer that I boarded the train in Tile Hill, not Coventry and purchased the ticket before boarding. However, the inspector would not listen to me and issued me a penalty notice of £100+£6.1. I gave my address and date of birth after the inspector threatened to call the police and it was my first time being accused of fare evasion.

When I arrived in Birmingham New Street, I could not use the barrier and had to ask the staff for help but they let me through after seeing my ticket. On my inward trip to Tile Hill, I was stopped by the barrier (showing “seek assistance”) and had to ask the staff for help again.

The penalty notice was issued for “No ticket” even though I believe I had the valid ticket. It had an origin station of Coventry even though I only boarded the train in Tile Hill. I checked my ticket against the RSP6 decoder and bank records and both showed I purchased the ticket at 12:19pm before the train had even arrived in Tile Hill. I checked my ticket against BRFares and Restriction Code (GF) and they showed no restrictions on short start at an intermediate station. I understand that the train departed from Coventry before I purchase the ticket. However, I only boarded the train in Tile Hill after the purchase so the ticket should be valid at the time.

I’ve attached the penalty fare notice here. Please could you advise me of my grounds for appeal? Thank you very much!

A) Being in possession of a valid ticket is not grounds to issue a penalty fare in the first place - if they had genuine suspicions your ticket was purchased after departure, they should’ve reported you for prosecution.

B) They have no legitimate reason to report you for prosecution anyway as they have no clear evidence you boarded a train without a valid ticket.

C) Deeply unprofessional and indiscreet behaviour from the second RPO according to your description.

Open a complaint with WMT explaining what happened. Also appeal the penalty fare immediately citing the same explanation, as it stops the clock on prosecution.

… Yet another example of improperly trained RPOs screwing over passengers. And, if they have received the correct training and weren’t listening/didn’t read the manual, they should be formally disciplined or fired if it’s happened before.

 

[gray1404]

Disgusting behaviour. If you want to take a belt and braces approach also request CCTV from the train station, the train and any body cam footage from both of the inspectors.

Your post above has pretty much written out your appeal. I would add in a line about how the penalty fell was not issued in accordance with the regulations. I would also submit a formal complaint to West Midlands Trains and be prepared to escalate if needed.

Get your appeal sent off and be prepared to appeal a second and third time if needed. An additional ground of appeal is that it was not issued to the next station at which the train was due to call.

 

[furlong]

1) Why did you buy from Coventry instead of Tile Hill?

2) Where was the train when it was issued? If the inspector does not know the station at which you boarded it must be issued from the most recent stop. How did the inspector surmise you got through the barriers at Coventry?

So this one will turn on the evidence the inspector has that proves you boarded at Coventry. The train operator bears the burden of proof. If they cannot "reasonably demonstrate" this, your appeal has to be upheld. [incorrect: see following posts.]

(4) Where the appellant makes representations as part of an appeal under this regulation in relation to any of the matters specified in paragraph (5), it is for the operator on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged to provide evidence that reasonably demonstrates that any fact described by the appellant in relation to any of those matters is not true.
(5) The matters referred to in paragraph (4) are—
(a) in circumstances where the appellant was charged a penalty fare in relation to travelling by, being present on, or leaving a train—
(i) by which train and preceding train or trains, if any, the appellant was travelling or had travelled or on which train the appellant was present or had been present;
(ii) at which station the appellant boarded the train and any preceding train or trains and at which station the appellant intended to leave that train;

Nevertheless, if you do have any proof you boarded at Tile Hill, you should supply it. Instructing them to preserve CCTV would be a good idea.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2025 ==

It should also have been issued to the next stop - not New Street unless that was the next stop - not least because nobody presenting a ticket valid for the rest of the journey would ask to buy a second one to cover it!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Where was the train when it was issued? If the inspector does not know the station at which you boarded it must be issued from the most recent stop. How did the inspector surmise you got through the barriers at Coventry?

It should also have been issued to the next stop - not New Street unless that was the next stop - not least because nobody presenting a ticket valid for the rest of the journey would ask to buy a second one to cover it!

If this was the train in question (see link below) it would appear to have been at or near Hampton-in-Arden station at the time the PF was ostensibly issued (12:29).

Realtime Trains | 1023 London Euston to Birmingham New Street | 30/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 1023 departure from London Euston to Birmingham New Street on 30/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Tram203]

I know Tile Hill station reasonably well.

Assuming you arrived at the station on the Birmingham bound side, I'm fairly certain there is a CCTV camera mounted on or near the ticket office building which points towards the road bridge and car park that would have captured your arrival at the platform.

Hope this helps and good luck with the appeal. I would encourage taking a complaint as far as possible even if your appeal is successful, based on the details provided.

 

[Haywain]

So this one will turn on the evidence the inspector has that proves you boarded at Coventry. The train operator bears the burden of proof. If they cannot "reasonably demonstrate" this, your appeal has to be upheld.

It won't, because a valid ticket was shown and that alone provides grounds for a successful appeal.

 

[KirkstallOne]

As furlong asked, why did you get a ticket starting at Coventry but board at Tile Hill? While the burden of proof is on the rail company as to when and where you boarded I feel the easiest route to a successful appeal is to provide a compelling reason why that made sense for your journey.

 

[Watershed]

As furlong asked, why did you get a ticket starting at Coventry but board at Tile Hill? While the burden of proof is on the rail company as to when and where you boarded I feel the easiest route to a successful appeal is to provide a compelling reason why that made sense for your journey.

One logical reason being that you might want to return to Coventry - or to have the option of doing so.

But yes, even though the Penalty Fare is clearly non-compliant in several respects and should therefore be overturned regardless, it will probably be easier to get an appeal accepted (e.g. at an earlier stage) if you can displace any assumption the appeals assessors may make that you were 'trying it on'.

 

[KirkstallOne]

One logical reason being that you might want to return to Coventry - or to have the option of doing so.

But yes, even though the Penalty Fare is clearly non-compliant in several respects and should therefore be overturned regardless, it will probably be easier to get an appeal accepted (e.g. at an earlier stage) if you can displace any assumption the appeals assessors may make that you were 'trying it on'.

Exactly, I’ve done similar journeys before but there is normally an exceptional reason for it.

I guess it is one of those situations like a broken machine where the jaded traveller starts feeling like they need to start collecting evidence of things. Here’s a photo of me on the platform where I am boarding short from etc.

 

[boxy_montage]

1) Why did you buy from Coventry instead of Tile Hill?

As furlong asked, why did you get a ticket starting at Coventry but board at Tile Hill? While the burden of proof is on the rail company as to when and where you boarded I feel the easiest route to a successful appeal is to provide a compelling reason why that made sense for your journey.

Return ticket from Coventry is only 20p more expensive than from Tile Hill. As Watershed has said, I like having the option to return to Coventry if I want to. I travel regularly between Tile Hill and Oxford for work and sometimes I break my journey at Coventry to order takeaway or visit the shops in Coventry before going home.

2) Where was the train when it was issued? If the inspector does not know the station at which you boarded it must be issued from the most recent stop. How did the inspector surmise you got through the barriers at Coventry?

The penalty was issued at 12:29 and the train was between Berkswell and Hampton-in-Arden at the time. I do not know how the inspector surmised I got through the barriers at Coventry. I believe all barriers at Coventry was staffed in the day although I was not sure since I was not in Coventry yesterday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2025 ==

The first inspector scanned my ticket soon after boarding so the train was between Tile Hill and Berkswell for the first scan. I am not sure when the second scan happened but it must be between Tile Hill and Hampton-in-Arden. I guess their devices should have the exact timestamps for those scans?

 

[Haywain]

Regardless of the questions above, and the assertion of the staff who issued the Penalty Fare, you are permitted to purchase whatever ticket you wish and use it how you wish, and if it is valid when requested a Penalty Fare is incorrectly issued. You should appeal on the grounds that you held and showed a valid ticket and therefore the PF stating "no ticket" is wrongly issued. There is no reason for you to prove where you boarded the train as, if you had boarded at Coventry, a PF would still not be the appropriate action to take for failing to purchase before boarding, it would be to report you for potential prosecution.

 

[DeverseSam]

When I arrived in Birmingham New Street, I could not use the barrier and had to ask the staff for help but they let me through after seeing my ticket. On my inward trip to Tile Hill, I was stopped by the barrier (showing “seek assistance”) and had to ask the staff for help again.

I believe this would be for a routine Railcard check rather than anything to do with the incident

 

[David Goddard]

Was it a paper ticket (i.e. from a ticket machine) that was bought?
If so then this will have on it the station code (1035) to identify point of issue, as well as the time of transaction.

 

[AlterEgo]

Was it a paper ticket (i.e. from a ticket machine) that was bought?
If so then this will have on it the station code (1035) to identify point of issue, as well as the time of transaction.

How would one be accused of buying a ticket after the train's departure if it was from a station ticket machine?

 

[David Goddard]

How would one be accused of buying a ticket after the train's departure if it was from a station ticket machine?

Precisely, that's more fuel to add to his claim as well

 

[boxy_montage]

Was it a paper ticket (i.e. from a ticket machine) that was bought?
If so then this will have on it the station code (1035) to identify point of issue, as well as the time of transaction.

No, it was an electronic ticket. But according to RSP6 decoder, my ticket was purchased at "2025-08-30 12:19:00.0". I do wonder now how the outcome might have changed had I held a paper ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2025 ==

Nevertheless, if you do have any proof you boarded at Tile Hill, you should supply it. Instructing them to preserve CCTV would be a good idea.

Disgusting behaviour. If you want to take a belt and braces approach also request CCTV from the train station, the train and any body cam footage from both of the inspectors.

Assuming you arrived at the station on the Birmingham bound side, I'm fairly certain there is a CCTV camera mounted on or near the ticket office building which points towards the road bridge and car park that would have captured your arrival at the platform.

Thank you for your advice on the CCTV and body cam footage. I was thinking about those too on my return yesterday. After I returned to Tile Hill station yesterday, I reacted my foot path and counted (and snapped) at least 15 cameras from my entry (Platform 2), across the foot bridge, to boarding (Platform 1). Unfortunately, the ticket office was temporality closed yesterday when I visited so I was not able to make enquiries on CCTV requests. I will try to submit CCTV requests online ASAP.

 

[furlong]

It won't, because a valid ticket was shown and that alone provides grounds for a successful appeal.

I misread - you are correct.

 

[Haywain]

I will try to submit CCTV requests online ASAP.

Feel free to do that but it really isn't necessary.

 

[Watershed]

Feel free to do that but it really isn't necessary.

There is nothing lost by getting definitive evidence that disproves any allegations of buying after boarding.

 

[John R]

There is nothing lost by getting definitive evidence that disproves any allegations of buying after boarding.

Indeed - if you request it within good time, and the request is refused for any reason, then I think that would go very much against the rail company in any dispute.

 

[transportphoto]

Was it a paper ticket (i.e. from a ticket machine) that was bought?
If so then this will have on it the station code (1035) to identify point of issue, as well as the time of transaction.

Irrelevant to this case but it’s worth noting that ticket vending machines often/usually/always have different National Location Codes from the stations themselves. I find it as irritating as the next person as they’re nigh impossible to easily look up.

 

[mr_jrt]

I am curious how this one pans out. I mused on exactly this situation a few weeks ago:

Theoretical question - Could look like like ticket bought late

I've been reading a few of the threads on here about people running afoul of being able to buy a ticket bought on the train, and doing so after the train has departed their origin station, so when inspected the ticket is not valid. A (admittedly somewhat contrived, but there you go) thought has...

www.railforums.co.uk

Yet more reason for people to stick with paper tickets as long as they can just to protect themselves.

 

[KirkstallOne]

I would be wary of focusing just on the fact you presented a valid ticket at the time of inspection. Whilst the forums opinion is that PFs cannot be used in these circumstances (even if the ticket was bought after boarding, which is the accusation the train company is making), without further context you are tempting the company to cancel the Penalty Fare and prosecute instead which would be legitimate if you actually had bought after boarding. Either way I fear such an appeal will not be readily accepted and rather clouds what is a straightforward defence for both the PF and any threatened prosecution.

Imo the best approach for a first appeal is to focus on the fact you boarded short for XYZ reasons and you have now requested CCTV is retained since this is in dispute. Any other evidence you can provide to back this up can only help the appeal be accepted without the need for a protracted dispute.

 

[John R]

I agree with the above.

To summarise it, the “valid ticket” argument is, “I did it, but you’ve not gone through the right process, so you can’t get me”, whereas the starting short reason is equivalent to “I didn’t do it.”

 

[boxy_montage]

Thank you everyone for your counsel on this matter. I appealed on the ground that I held a valid ticket at the time. A few days later, AS Appeals Service asked me to submit evidence of purchase date and time. I gave my bank app screenshots and e-tickets (QR code showing the timestamp). This week, they told me that my first appeal was approved and the case closed.

Separately, I submitted a complaint against the two inspectors to West Midland Railway and a CCTV/Body cam request to WMR and National Rail. I have not received any response yet.

Thank you again for everyone's help on this thread!

Here is the full response from AS:

Thank you for your correspondence concerning the above referenced Penalty Fare Notice issued by West

Midlands on Saturday 30 August 2025.

The Appeals Service (AS) is independent of West Midlands. AS provide a service which gives the recipient of a

Penalty Fare Notice the opportunity to dispute the issue. To ensure consistency, AS follow a Code of Practice

compliant with the criteria set out in the Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022 when making

assessments of Penalty Fare Notice appeals.

All transport companies operating a Penalty Fare scheme display warning notices which advise transport users of

their obligations and the potential consequences in failing to meet these.

The transport user is required to show on request a valid ticket. However, on this occasion I acknowledge that

difficulties were experienced.

On assessment your appeal has been approved and this case is now closed.

Finally, as an appeals service which is independent of West Midlands we are unable to investigate complaints

concerning West Midlands service or staff conduct. Please therefore contact West Midlands direct with your

requests and concerns.

 

[30907]

Success, though the response reads rather oddly.

Your complaint will take longer to reply to let alone resolve.

 

[185143]

I was told by a member of Virgin ticket office staff about 10 years ago when I asked for a ticket from a station with a different origin (my local) on a different line. The fare was either the same or very similar, I can't recall now.

The ticket clerk asked why I hadn't bought it there, fair enough, so I explained I'd been dropped off and would need to get back to my home station. I was then very bizarrely told I couldn't do that, on a basic anytime day return which had no break of journey restrictions, and they weren't prepared to sell it to me.

So I'm not surprised to read of someone having issues in this manner and it's good you've got it resolved, though seems pretty outrageous a PF was issued in your particular case given the lack of a scan at Coventry's gateline which was backed up with a plausible explanation. I suppose it's quite possible that the concept of a break of journey isn't unheard of, but the concept of someone buying a ticket from further away and paying more than they need to is uncommon.

In my particular case I went up to the train, told the TM I needed a ticket and explained what had happened. He rolled his eyes in disbelief (at the situation, not implying I was lying!), put the ticket I needed into his machine and happily sold it no questions asked. This was a Virgin service so no risk of being Penalty Fared and I would have been under 18 at the time so the chance of prosecution would have been extremely low, though I don't recall VT often taking that route anyway.

 

[ticketschaos]

Thank you everyone for your counsel on this matter. I appealed on the ground that I held a valid ticket at the time. A few days later, AS Appeals Service asked me to submit evidence of purchase date and time. I gave my bank app screenshots and e-tickets (QR code showing the timestamp). This week, they told me that my first appeal was approved and the case closed.

Separately, I submitted a complaint against the two inspectors to West Midland Railway and a CCTV/Body cam request to WMR and National Rail. I have not received any response yet.

Thank you again for everyone's help on this thread!

Here is the full response from AS:

Thank you for your correspondence concerning the above referenced Penalty Fare Notice issued by West

Midlands on Saturday 30 August 2025.

The Appeals Service (AS) is independent of West Midlands. AS provide a service which gives the recipient of a

Penalty Fare Notice the opportunity to dispute the issue. To ensure consistency, AS follow a Code of Practice

compliant with the criteria set out in the Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022 when making

assessments of Penalty Fare Notice appeals.

All transport companies operating a Penalty Fare scheme display warning notices which advise transport users of

their obligations and the potential consequences in failing to meet these.

The transport user is required to show on request a valid ticket. However, on this occasion I acknowledge that

difficulties were experienced.

On assessment your appeal has been approved and this case is now closed.

Finally, as an appeals service which is independent of West Midlands we are unable to investigate complaints

concerning West Midlands service or staff conduct. Please therefore contact West Midlands direct with your

requests and concerns.

Hi. First, well done and congratulations. I had the exact response from the AS. I am assuming we won our appeal and we no longer are liable to pay the fee, right? It's clearly stated.. but I am pretty sure that's the outcome? Thanks.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Separately, I submitted a complaint against the two inspectors to West Midland Railway and a CCTV/Body cam request to WMR and National Rail. I have not received any response yet.

I would suggest this might now be the next focus point.

WMR need to formally respond to your complaint and conceed that they now recognise & accept that the Penalty Fare should never have been issued.

In my view until these Train Operators (and their staff) are called to account for incorrectly applying the rules they will just keep doing the same.

So might it be prudent to ask WMT what action they are are now taking to prevent similar re-occurance?

And ask that the letter be a "Deadlock" response.

BTW time is up, this coming Sunday, for Transport UK running this operation, it reverts to public ownership. But I am wondering if that will make any difference