• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Penalty Fare Appeal?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Throwaway4199

New Member
Joined
7 Nov 2024
Messages
3
Location
Warrington
Hello,

I commute to uni (Liverpool Lime St) from Birchwood pretty much everyday. Prefer to use TransPennine Express as they're faster. I got issued a penalty fare as I didn't have a ticket. I'd forgot to buy one, usually buy one 30-45m before on trainline. I wanted to know whether I should be appealing it or not, I read up on the basic reasons to appeal on other threads, though I don't fully understand a couple points on wording? I wanted to try and appeal on the basis of compassion, attach the previous receipts as proof? If it is a good idea, how exactly would I do that after going to the penaltyfareservices website? Is there any other way to appeal?

Thank You!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

chawky

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2023
Messages
29
Location
uk
Please post all the paper work you’ve received/the penalty fare with any personal information blurred out.

It’s not possible to appeal on compassion, only if the PF should not have been issued or if it has been issued incorrectly.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
9,230
Hello,

I commute to uni (Liverpool Lime St) from Birchwood pretty much everyday. Prefer to use TransPennine Express as they're faster. I got issued a penalty fare as I didn't have a ticket. I'd forgot to buy one, usually buy one 30-45m before on trainline. I wanted to know whether I should be appealing it or not, I read up on the basic reasons to appeal on other threads, though I don't fully understand a couple points on wording? I wanted to try and appeal on the basis of compassion, attach the previous receipts as proof? If it is a good idea, how exactly would I do that after going to the penaltyfareservices website? Is there any other way to appeal?

Thank You!
An appeal based on "compassion" is very, very, very unlikely to get anywhere.

What might succeed would be an appeal based on an error in the issuing of the Penalty Fare. This could be an error in the paperwork issued to you or the signage at Birchwood.

I would suggest you post the paperwork you received (obscure identifying details) on here and the experts - I am not one - may spot an error or errors. And if you can show what signage there is at Birchwood that might help.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
18,156
Welcome to the forum!

A Penalty Fare is a higher than normal fare issued to peole who have made an 'honest mistake'. Being given a Penalty Fare is not an accusation of fare evasion, if the ticket inspector believed your were evading your fare then they should've taken your details for investigation.

There's nothing to lose by appealing, in fact from a legal point of view there are advantages in appealing. Based on what you've told us I wouldn't expect an appeal to succeed.

That said there might be some very technical reasons why an appeal might succeed. These normally are because there are mistakes in the Penalty Fare notice you were given or deficient signage at the station where you started your journey. Penalty Fare warning signs have to use a very specific form of words and many do not, potentially opening the door for an appeal to succeed.

Forum members will be able to advise further if you can upload a copy of the Penalty Fare notice your were given. Do redact any personal details and case reference numbers before uploading.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
5,330
Location
Reading
A Penalty Fare is a higher than normal fare issued to people who have made an 'honest mistake'.

A Penalty Fare is a civil penalty that the law allows rail companies to impose on people who have evaded their fare. As long as the train company adhered to the relevant regulations, it is entitled to assume you behaved dishonestly and impose the Penalty Fare as your punishment.

Being given a Penalty Fare is not an accusation of fare evasion,

Technically correct but rather misleading. If the train company does not believe there was fare evasion, then no Penalty Fare can be issued. Perhaps it is rather subtle, but the whole point about Penalty Fares is that the regulations define circumstances in which the company is entitled to consider that fare evasion did occur. It can then impose a civil penalty as punishment directly without any need to gather evidence and prove an offence to the criminal standard in court, greatly simplying and speeding up the whole process of dealing with fare evaders. But in return for shifting the burden of proof to the passenger (to prove their behaviour was not dishonest) the passenger is not prosecuted and not treated as a criminal.

if the ticket inspector believed your were evading your fare then they should've taken your details for investigation.
Or just issued a Penalty Fare - as they did. They can take details for further investigation irrespective of whether or not they issue a Penalty Fare for the incident in question.
One of the stated benefits of Penalty Fares is to deal with straightforward cases of fare evasion outside the criminal system.

There's nothing to lose by appealing, in fact from a legal point of view there are advantages in appealing. Based on what you've told us I wouldn't expect an appeal to succeed.
With the burden of proof shifted onto you, you are given a right to appeal to an "independent" panel. It can uphold appeals on the grounds that "there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case" you should not be liable. Unfortunately your explanation does not sound very compelling but if you can provide a solid long-term track record of paying there is nothing to lose in trying. The line of argument this type of appeal has basically got to overcome is: "There were sufficient notices at the station where you boarded the train readily visible to every passenger before boarding any train that made it clear that you were required to have a valid ticket before you boarded and if you didn't a Penalty Fare might be imposed upon you. You cannot have failed to see at least one of those notices before boarding and therefore we are entitled to assume that you must have deliberately decided to disregard the information on them and attempt to avoid paying for your journey. If you had forgotten on this particular occasion, the notices are there to remind you to check."

We often suggest adding additional grounds to an appeal based on technicalities where the notices do not comply with the letter of the regulations.

Try to get into the habit of always checking you have your ticket before you get onto any train anywhere!
 
Last edited:

Throwaway4199

New Member
Joined
7 Nov 2024
Messages
3
Location
Warrington
You cannot have failed to see at least one of those notices before boarding and therefore we are entitled to assume that you must have deliberately decided to disregard the information on them and attempt to avoid paying for your journey. If you had forgotten on this particular occasion, the notices are there to remind you to check."

We often suggest adding additional grounds to an appeal based on technicalities where the notices do not comply with the letter of the regulations.
Thank you everyone for the information so far, helped understand a bit. I can't seem to find a notice on my platform (2) and only really found one. Found one outside the station near the 'main' entrance, but there are multiple entrances directly and one directly onto platform 1.

Attached the PF and the sign I saw below.
Thank You!



WhatsApp Image 2024-11-10 at 09.24.45_265fe9ac.jpgWhatsApp Image 2024-11-10 at 09.24.44_0e7e9cc5.jpgWhatsApp Image 2024-11-10 at 09.25.12_1688d224.jpg
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
5,330
Location
Reading
So you'd need to fill in the details - quote the relevant words directly from the regulations so they don't need to cross-reference anything - but in outline I think you're saying the argument is
- you forgot to buy at home(?) as usual before setting off (because? distracted?)
- at the station nothing prompted you to check before getting on the train
- company imposed a PF on you
- you since returned to the station and have confirmed that on the route you took the notices required by the regulations 8(2) are not present (be specific about platform entrances)
- searching, you located just one notice somewhere not "readily visible" to you on the day (required by 8(4))
- had the notices been placed as required, you'd have seen one and that is likely (?) to have prompted you to realise you'd forgotten and buy it
- further that notice doesn't contain the words mandated by schedule 1 1(c) so it doesn't count as a notice under the regulations anyway

- your appeal is under 16(3)(a) for the 3 independent reasons above
- additionally under 16(3)(d) if you feel you want to make your original argument too

For notice-based appeals also reference the regulations to remind the appeal panel that unless the company decides to challenge what you tell them about the notices and the appeal panel upholds that challenge (ref 16(4) etc. with 16(6) and 16(7)), it has no discretion and must uphold the appeal. (Some examples of that sort of text on other threads.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Technically a station is either compliant as a whole or it is not compliant - it is binary - an objective test irrespective of the circumstances of any particular PF. A notice missing from a platform entrance you didn't use is sufficient to prevent any PFs from being issued for boarding at that station. Realistically though, your arguments are likely to get a more sympathetic hearing if it's true that the problems with the notices actually impacted you directly.
 
Last edited:

Throwaway4199

New Member
Joined
7 Nov 2024
Messages
3
Location
Warrington
A tiny bit confused, so ended up cross-referencing the legal bit. After checking station again, I'll be appealing, and when appealing, I'd be quoting/using the grounds of bad notices 16(3)(a) and also 16(3)(d) by mentioning how I've always bought a ticket and would've done so if there had been more notices (have like 200 email-receipts). Would you know how many I would be attaching to be considered 'enough evidence'? Also is there any specific words I need to use in my appeal other than the section numbers for reference and mentioning how there are 3 entrances?

- 3 Entrances Explained as I dont recall doing so before
There are 3 entrances, 2 have you directly go through the ticket office kiosk, but a 3rd outside gate usually opened once the mains are locked, is not always locked, like this time. That one would have you directly on P1, next to a staircase to get you to P2.

you forgot to buy at home(?) as usual before setting off (because? distracted?)
yeah kinda, the train was delayed by like 12-13m, but delay happened 2 big stops before, wasn't sure how long it'd end up being. I live just far enough away to need a drop off by parent, wanted to make sure we leave early enough but not too early. Kinda forgot to buy one in the end.

you since returned to the station
I might wait a bit just to confirm that there indeed is only one sign, check my platform. I'm assuming anything that's displayed periodically won't count as someone could miss it or the digital display (TVs, departure boards) was faulty.

Thank you!!
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
18,156
If you're appealing on the basis of the wording not following the regulations then take a look at thispost for an idea of how to set out an appeal.

 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top