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Hi,
I have received a penalty fare of £140.
Is it worth me appealing?
I arrived at Stratford station intending to buy a ticket. I tried to use the ticket machine but I couldn’t get it to accept my rail card. I asked a uniformed member of staff to help me. He was very busy and the only visible member of staff. The ticket office was closed. I asked again if he could help or if I could buy my ticket on the train. He said that if I assured him that I would buy my ticket on the train then that would be ok. He lifted the barrier for me to go through. I got stopped by inspector details were taken and after explaining my case in writing I have been issued this fine.
Hi,
I have received a penalty fare of £140.
Is it worth me appealing?
I arrived at Stratford station intending to buy a ticket. I tried to use the ticket machine but I couldn’t get it to accept my rail card. I asked a uniformed member of staff to help me. He was very busy and the only visible member of staff. The ticket office was closed. I asked again if he could help or if I could buy my ticket on the train. He said that if I assured him that I would buy my ticket on the train then that would be ok. He lifted the barrier for me to go through. I got stopped by inspector details were taken and after explaining my case in writing I have been issued this fine.
i was asked for my details on the train. I was then sent a ‘Notice of Intended Prosecution’ . I replied to this and was the e-mailed a letter saying I could pay £140 which is the equivalent of me being given a penalty fare in the day
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i was asked for my details on the train. I was then sent a ‘Notice of Intended Prosecution’ . I replied to this and was the e-mailed a letter saying I could pay £140 which is the equivalent of me being given a penalty fare in the day
I am really sorry, I was travelling from Leamington Spa, the fraud inspector told me the gate keeper would get into serious trouble for letting me through so I was trying to avoid any connection. I realise now that it wasn’t helpful. I was hoping my question was generic enough for it not to matter!!
What barrier did the employee “lift”? Can you describe this barrier?
It is worth noting this isn’t a Penalty Fare and there is no formal appeal process, although you may still correspond with the train company to see if they will rescind it.
What barrier did the employee “lift”? Can you describe this barrier?
It is worth noting this isn’t a Penalty Fare and there is no formal appeal process, although you may still correspond with the train company to see if they will rescind it.
The barrier is one of those that you can scan your ticket or put a paper ticket through. The employee used his ‘pass’ and the gates opened (thinking about it they are ‘double waist height ish) gates.
The letter I received included a link to pay. On the link there was an option to appeal, although my numbers were not recognised so I have emailed trying to sort this out. Maybe it’s because I can’t appeal?
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i was asked for my details on the train. I was then sent a ‘Notice of Intended Prosecution’ . I replied to this and was the e-mailed a letter saying I could pay £140 which is the equivalent of me being given a penalty fare in the day
The letter I received included a link to pay. On the link there was an option to appeal, although my numbers were not recognised so I have emailed trying to sort this out. Maybe it’s because I can’t appeal?
It's a while since this was posted, so sorry if you've already moved on - but as you have worked out, you cannot specifically appeal against this £140.
You are entitled to someone taking a second look at it - but the way to do that is by the railway prosecuting you for fare dodging (so you have the chance for the court to look at it) instead of allowing you to settle the matter out of court.
On the basis of what you have told us, I think that you would have a chance of winning in court in that whoever opened the gate for you implicitly gave you permission to board a train without having bought your ticket beforehand. But realistically this is a slim chance - and whether you won or not, you would have to go through the stress and hassle of being taken to court. Plus if you lost you would have to pay a fine and costs which almost certainly come to more than the £140 you are currently being asked for.
On balance, you may very well decide that it's better to pay the £140, and know that the matter will then be closed.
The barrier is one of those that you can scan your ticket or put a paper ticket through. The employee used his ‘pass’ and the gates opened (thinking about it they are ‘double waist height ish) gates.
The letter I received included a link to pay. On the link there was an option to appeal, although my numbers were not recognised so I have emailed trying to sort this out. Maybe it’s because I can’t appeal?
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It's a while since this was posted, so sorry if you've already moved on - but as you have worked out, you cannot specifically appeal against this £140.
You are entitled to someone taking a second look at it - but the way to do that is by the railway prosecuting you for fare dodging (so you have the chance for the court to look at it) instead of allowing you to settle the matter out of court.
On the basis of what you have told us, I think that you would have a chance of winning in court in that whoever opened the gate for you implicitly gave you permission to board a train without having bought your ticket beforehand. But realistically this is a slim chance - and whether you won or not, you would have to go through the stress and hassle of being taken to court. Plus if you lost you would have to pay a fine and costs which almost certainly come to more than the £140 you are currently being asked for.
On balance, you may very well decide that it's better to pay the £140, and know that the matter will then be closed.
Thank you so much for replying, I was slowly coming to this conclusion!
I have read other threads and it has actually shocked me at how harsh the railways are in treating first time, possibly genuine, mistakes.
I have replied asking that they reconsider my case but do not hold out much hope. I will pay the fine on Monday if I do not hear back. I may contact the railway ombudsman if it’s not resolved, not sure, nothing to lose I guess. It’s not to do with the money now, it just feels ‘wrong’!!
What time were you trying to purchase a ticket. What railcard were you trying to use?
I ask this because my railcard allows me to travel at or after 09:30 on weekdays. The first Off Peak train is at 09:30. But the ticket machine at my local station won't sell railcard discounted tickets until 09:30......
If your issue is something like this then it could make a difference.
What time were you trying to purchase a ticket. What railcard were you trying to use?
I ask this because my railcard allows me to travel at or after 09:30 on weekdays. The first Off Peak train is at 09:30. But the ticket machine at my local station won't sell railcard discounted tickets until 09:30......
If your issue is something like this then it could make a difference.
Thank you so much for replying. I was trying to use a senior railcard. After 9.30 am. It wasn’t a problem with my card, it was that the touch screen wasn't responding. I asked for help from uniformed member of staff but he was overwhelmed with other customers. Between us we agreed rather than missing my train I could buy my ticket on the train. He opened the gates for me so that I could do this. If I had any idea that I would be added to a data base and got a fine (least of my worries, more concerned that I am actually scared to get a train in case I lose my ticket and end up with a criminal record) would not have considered going ahead.
Thank you so much for replying. I was trying to use a senior railcard. After 9.30 am. It wasn’t a problem with my card, it was that the touch screen wasn't responding. I asked for help from uniformed member of staff but he was overwhelmed with other customers. Between us we agreed rather than missing my train I could buy my ticket on the train. He opened the gates for me so that I could do this. If I had any idea that I would be added to a data base and got a fine (least of my worries, more concerned that I am actually scared to get a train in case I lose my ticket and end up with a criminal record) would not have considered going ahead.
Thanks for confirming. So my hypothesis about the railcard was incorrect. I have come across some ticket machines where it is very difficult to get the screen to respond.
If you do want to lodge a second appeal it might be worth trying to replicate the issue you had on the ticket machine and getting a video of it and sending this with your appeal. I can't say your appeal would be successful but it might be worth a try.
Try not to be put off travelling by train. Think of what's happened as like getting a parking or speeding ticket - very frustrating and annoying but somethimes these things happen.
There's a proper defence here. The ticket machine wasn't working and the ticket office was closed. The staff member on the gate was perfectly correct to let the OP through, whatever nonsense the revenue protection person said. The OP committed no actual offence.
That said, it's tricky to get evidence of a non- functioning ticket machine.
This is almost exactly the same situation that @KirkstallOne found himself in and successfully overturned, except there he was issued with a Penalty Fare Notice.
Thanks for confirming. So my hypothesis about the railcard was incorrect. I have come across some ticket machines where it is very difficult to get the screen to respond.
If you do want to lodge a second appeal it might be worth trying to replicate the issue you had on the ticket machine and getting a video of it and sending this with your appeal. I can't say your appeal would be successful but it might be worth a try.
Try not to be put off travelling by train. Think of what's happened as like getting a parking or speeding ticket - very frustrating and annoying but somethimes these things
There's a proper defence here. The ticket machine wasn't working and the ticket office was closed. The staff member on the gate was perfectly correct to let the OP through, whatever nonsense the revenue protection person said. The OP committed no actual offence.
That said, it's tricky to get evidence of a non- functioning ticket machine.
This is almost exactly the same situation that @KirkstallOne found himself in and successfully overturned, except there he was issued with a Penalty Fare Notice.
This is almost exactly the same situation that @KirkstallOne found himself in and successfully overturned, except there he was issued with a Penalty Fare Notice.
Not really. There are significant differences when it's a Penalty Fare - plus KirkstallOne didn't damage his credibility by making things up then changing his story.
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The evidence required is that of the person on duty who let the OP through in full knowledge of the situation providing permission to pay later. If it's not too long ago they should still remember or there might be CCTV to help. (As others often say, the system would work a lot better if they formally logged these situations at the time or handed over a written authority. Ticket machines should also be logging all button presses and making that data available too in situations such as this one.)
Thank you for your reply, I am learning as I go along!! This is what I am thinking at the moment. An ‘authorised person’ gave me permission to board a train ( therefore travel) without a ticket . Within bye law 17, as I understand it, this should mean I haven’t committed an offence. Because of the type of fine apparently I have no right to appeal without going to court. ( I think I’ve understood correctly!!) I will be going to the ombudsman if my email requesting they reconsider does not solve the issue. So i actually don’t think it should matter whether the ticket machine was working or not. If a uniformed member of staff opened the barrier and told me I could buy a ticket on the train then nothing else should matter. The advice on line is contact the actual company, in my case Chiltern, customer service, they just say it’s nothing to do with them!!
I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. Also I now realise there are signs up warning people about travelling without a ticket which I hadn’t noticed, one states that if I pay within 21 days the fine is halved but I haven’t been given that option, why would that be please?
Not really. There are significant differences when it's a Penalty Fare - plus KirkstallOne didn't damage his credibility by making things up then changing his story.
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I took the view that the OP wasn't "making things up" but had a confused memory when required to write the account down. That's something that happens to me occasionally so I didn't rush to judgement
I now realise there are signs up warning people about travelling without a ticket which I hadn’t noticed, one states that if I pay within 21 days the fine is halved but I haven’t been given that option, why would that be please?
There's a serious anomaly with Penalty Fares (which is what the notice refers to) in that whoever stops you can potentially be someone who isn't authorised to issue them or just decides not to. The system then reverts to the harsher alternative, which is a threat of court action. Then there's no discount for early payment of the sum demanded to avoid court and no independent appeal except the court itself. If payment isn't made swiftly then the sums likely to be paid go up beyond the figure first demanded!
Thank you for your reply, I am learning as I go along!! This is what I am thinking at the moment. An ‘authorised person’ gave me permission to board a train ( therefore travel) without a ticket . Within bye law 17, as I understand it, this should mean I haven’t committed an offence. Because of the type of fine apparently I have no right to appeal without going to court. ( I think I’ve understood correctly!!) I will be going to the ombudsman if my email requesting they reconsider does not solve the issue. So i actually don’t think it should matter whether the ticket machine was working or not. If a uniformed member of staff opened the barrier and told me I could buy a ticket on the train then nothing else should matter. The advice on line is contact the actual company, in my case Chiltern, customer service, they just say it’s nothing to do with them!!
I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. Also I now realise there are signs up warning people about travelling without a ticket which I hadn’t noticed, one states that if I pay within 21 days the fine is halved but I haven’t been given that option, why would that be please?
Based on what you've told us you were given permission to travel by an authorised person. The problem is going to be demonstrating this. 'But the man on the platform said...' is one of the most frequently given excuses into ticketing irregularities on the railway. If you're going to pursue this line of defence then you need to think about how your going to add weight to what you're claiming.
You told us you started your journey at Leamington Spa and couldn't get the ticket machine to sell you the ticket you wanted because the touch screen wasn't responsive. I'm pretty certain there's more than one ticket machine at Leamington Spa and the ticket office should've been open, but was closed at the time. Was there a reason why you didn't use another machine if the issue was purely an unresponsive touch screen?
Byelaw 17 refers to Compulsory Ticket Areas. I'm not 100% certain if Leaming Spa is a Compulsory Ticket Area, if it isn't then Byelaw 18 is the appropriate one. Many Cilhtern operated stations were CTAs but I think the situation might have changed - perhaps @furlong knows more.
The signage you refer to about a discount for paying within 21-days is about Penalty Fares. You were not issued with a Penalty Fare, your details were taken for further investigation so this is irrelevant in your case.
We have had poor reports about the Rail Ombudsman. I'm not saying you shouldn't take your case to them but we have seen examples where they just regurgitate what they've been told by the train company.
Finally, if you are going to take this further than you have to be very precise about what you're saying. For example, in this thread you told us you were trying to purchase a ticket at Stratford. Stratford station is in London. What you actually happened was you tried to purchase a ticket at Leamington Spa station for a journey from Leamington Spa to Statford-Upon-Avon. I know some might say I'm being pedantic but these things matter if you're setting out your case to people like Prosecutions Departments or the Ombudsman.
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There's a serious anomaly with Penalty Fares (which is what the notice refers to) in that whoever stops you can potentially be someone who isn't authorised to issue them or just decides not to. The system then reverts to the harsher alternative, which is a threat of court action. Then there's no discount for early payment of the sum demanded to avoid court and no independent appeal except the court itself. If payment isn't made swiftly then the sums likely to be paid go up beyond the figure first demanded!
This is getting off-topic because @Jane21 was not issued with a Penalty Fare. To prevent this thread going off-topic further discussion about Penalty Fares and who can issues them etc is best done in a separate thread.
I know some might say I'm being pedantic but these things matter if you're setting out your case to people like Prosecutions Departments or the Ombudsman.
Not at all being pedantic. Being precise and laying out your points clearly and concisely when submitting "your case" makes the task for the person reading the case much simpler and therefore easier for the matter to be resolved.
Byelaw 17 refers to Compulsory Ticket Areas. I'm not 100% certain if Leaming Spa is a Compulsory Ticket Area, if it isn't then Byelaw 18 is the appropriate one. Many Cilhtern operated stations were CTAs but I think the situation might have changed - perhaps @furlong knows more.
Postings in this thread indicate that Leamington Spa remained a compulsory ticket area station as recently as 3 April this year. It would be helpful for the OP to clarify whether Chiltern is alleging a breach of Byelaw 17 or 18 - or some other provision.
Postings in this thread indicate that Leamington Spa remained a compulsory ticket area station as recently as 3 April this year. It would be helpful for the OP to clarify whether Chiltern is alleging a breach of Byelaw 17 or 18 - or some other provision.
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This is the letter I received. The ref numbers given did not allow me to appeal. Having learnt from this site I realise most I have put is irrelevant. My case would be that the gatekeeper gave me permission to buy a ticket on the train (therefore travel without a ticket) and opened the barrier to allow me through. I think my only option is to pay then go to the rail ombudsman? Thanks for all comments
Neither of the copy documents you have uploaded appears to be a copy of the Notice of Intended Prosecution to which you referred in post #8, and that Notice probably contains details of the offence Chiltern intends to allege you committed. Could you please upload a copy of that Notice, with details that might identify you suitably obscured.
Neither of the copy documents you have uploaded appears to be a copy of the Notice of Intended Prosecution to which you referred in post #8, and that Notice probably contains details of the offence Chiltern intends to allege you committed. Could you please upload a copy of that Notice, with details that might identify you suitably obscured.
I then replied to this by e-mail. A very long detailed account of what happened (which I now realise was mostly irrelevant!!) and the response was the offer in the previous post to pay £140 ish.
isn't this showing that they are offering you an out of court settlement for c£136 after you replied to their original letter, and the alternative is that if you do not opt for this they will opt to prosecute you in the magistrates court (if they win it will cost more than that and you will have criminal record)
They are making the point that the sum they are asking for is in line with a Penalty Fare (but this is not Penalty fare so no right of appeal or prompt payment discount - it's important to appreciate that this is NOT a Penalty Fare ) so they view it as a reasonable offer I suppose.
So unless you can show at court that you did not commit a ticketing offence you would be found guilty and to do that will require you to show or 'prove' the person, who let you through the gate gave permission so the court are satisfied that that is the case (or persuade the magistrates that they did)- and if you could find out who the staff member was and get them to the court to give evidence they would probably just say 'I can't remember this situation...
So to avoid all of this it's probably best that you pay the sum they are asking for (and keep proof of payment / receipt) even though that will seem unfair to you given what happened on the day at the station.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
