Penalty fare appeal

[orange1]

Hello


I received a penalty fare recently and paid the penalty promptly on the website because I wanted to forget about it.

However I've since decided I want to appeal it.

Does anyone know if it is possible to appeal after paying the penalty?

If so, is it worth me doing? And is there anything in the regs which would cause any problems in this process?


Thanks in advance

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe the usual time limits still apply (must appeal within 21 days of the penalty being charged) but you can certainly still appeal as far as I'm aware. In the event you're successful then the Penalty Fare should be refunded to you.

If you want to give more information about what happened it may be possible to advise on whether it is worth your time appealing or at least giving some guidance on possible arguments you could make.

 

[orange1]

Thanks for the reply.

I rarely use the train so did not realise that you could not just buy a ticket on the train. As soon as I got on the train an RPI asked to see my ticket, so I asked to buy one, and he asked why I hadn't already bought one before getting on the train. I said I didn't know I couldn't buy one on the train and then he issued the penalty fare notice.

I have also been back to the station to check if there is any signage that I missed. While there is a penalty fare poster at one entrance to the station, I had used another entrance which has no such signs between there and the platform so don't understand how I could have been made aware of the requirement to have a ticket beforehand.

I now know that I need to buy a ticket beforehand if I use the train in future, but I feel the penalty fare was a bit unreasonable under these circumstances.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you boarded a train and passed an opportunity to pay, the penalty fare was probably correctly issued and there are no grounds for appeal.

Is that what happened? Which station did you board at?

 

[furlong]

(There are very few compulsory ticket areas - it means something different from ticket barriers - so that text is unlikely to apply.)

Display of Notices
8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.
(2) Where any entrance onto a platform at the station is not the entrance to, or situated within, a
compulsory ticket area, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of
Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed at that entrance.
(3) If the station has one or more compulsory ticket areas, a notice complying with the
requirements of paragraph 2 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a compulsory ticket area notice”) must be
displayed at each entrance into a compulsory ticket area.
(4) Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient
locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to
boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train.

The regulations treat this as a matter of fact: a station either complies or it does not comply. It doesn't depend on anything you did, though of course if you took a route through the station that didn't encounter such a "readily visible" notice you should state that. (The question for the appeal panel is not "Would this particular passenger have been expected to see one of the notices?" but rather "Does the station comply with the requirements for Display of Notices?")

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I rarely use the train so did not realise that you could not just buy a ticket on the train. As soon as I got on the train an RPI asked to see my ticket, so I asked to buy one, and he asked why I hadn't already bought one before getting on the train. I said I didn't know I couldn't buy one on the train and then he issued the penalty fare notice.

So in broad terms, you were in breach of the rules...

I have also been back to the station to check if there is any signage that I missed. While there is a penalty fare poster at one entrance to the station, I had used another entrance which has no such signs between there and the platform so don't understand how I could have been made aware of the requirement to have a ticket beforehand.

.. but (taking into account @furlong's quote of the regulations and comment above) it's possible that there is an exemption that would mean that the penalty fare was not correctly issued.

It seems to me that there's no guarantee that you would win if you appealed - but neither is there a guarantee that you would lose either. So it really comes down to how important it is to you to try to get the money back. This might be because it's a matter of principle to you, or because you really can't afford the penalty and you need the cash. Against either of these positions, you need to think about how long much time and effort it will take you to win the appeal and get repaid - and how much that repayment would be: my understanding is that penalty fares start at £20 but can be more if the fare to the next station the train calls at is more than £20.

Personally, unless my money was extremely tight and my time available was unlimited, I'd let it go.

(Edited to clarify what I meant)

 

[30907]

I have also been back to the station to check if there is any signage that I missed. While there is a penalty fare poster at one entrance to the station, I had used another entrance which has no such signs between there and the platform so don't understand how I could have been made aware of the requirement to have a ticket beforehand.

If this is the case (no notice at a public entrance or on the platform/s you used) and in particular if you didn't pass a ticket machine (these often have PF notices) you have a case that the station is non-compliant if you wish to pursue it.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Hello @orange1 . Could you tell us which station you boarded at? Other posters are correct in that you may have grounds for appeal as Penalty Fare (PF) warinings must be displayed. However, many PF stations also have warning notices on the platform, which you may not have noticed.

 

[island]

You can appeal a Penalty Fare that’s already been paid, as long as you do so within the time limits.

If you’re successful any excess payment will be refunded; in this case, you would get a refund less the single fare for the journey that you made.

 

[furlong]

If you’re successful any excess payment will be refunded; in this case, you would get a refund less the single fare for the journey that you made.

You get a complete refund of any penalty fare paid after a successful appeal made under the regulations. The regulations do not permit deductions.

(12) If the appellant referred to in paragraph (11) has paid the penalty fare, or part of it, the
operator on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged must repay to the appellant the amount
paid within the period of 10 working days, beginning with whichever is the earlier of—
(a) the day on which that operator receives notification that the appeal has been allowed; or
(b) the day on which the time period specified in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2 expires.

When a penalty fare is imposed, that then is the fare due for that journey - no liability to pay another "single fare for the journey" remains - the penalty fare replaces whatever other fare might have otherwise been due. A system might have been designed to retain the liability for the fare for the journey with an additional penalty to pay on top ("you must still pay the fare due for your journey, and in addition a penalty equal to that fare plus an additional amount that brings the total due up to £20 if it is lower") , but for whatever reason it wasn't done this way. Alternatively the regulations might have contained a provision for the appeals panel to have the option to direct that a notional alternative fare should be due, decided according to the particular circumstances in each case, but they don't.

 

[robbeech]

You get a complete refund of any penalty fare paid after a successful appeal made under the regulations. The regulations do not permit deductions.



When a penalty fare is imposed, that then is the fare due for that journey - no liability to pay another "single fare for the journey" remains - the penalty fare replaces whatever other fare might have otherwise been due. A system might have been designed to retain the liability for the fare for the journey with an additional penalty to pay on top, but for whatever reason it wasn't done this way. Alternatively the regulations might have contained a provision for the appeal panel to have the option to direct that a notional alternative fare should be due, decided according to the particular circumstances in each case, but they don't.

This doesn't stop the fare being due though.

 

[furlong]

This doesn't stop the fare being due though.

The fare due for the journey that was made IS the Penalty Fare. That liability has been discharged and comes with a statutory appeals process. Anything else would need either separation of fare and penalty (so the fare remains due regardless of what happens in respect of the penalty), or explicit provision in the regulations for an ongoing liability beyond a successful appeal. (Winning an appeal does not rescind a Penalty Fare. What it does is remove the liability to pay the amount it was made out for, and require that anything already paid is refunded - the effect is similar to changing it retrospectively into a zero fare. To impose an alternative fare afterwards, I'd expect the train company to need to show that it acted unlawfully in issuing the Penalty Fare and, notwithstanding the fact it engaged with the appeals process and lost, attempt to unwind the whole procedure to get the Penalty Fare rescinded - but that would leave it open to the passenger to seek compensation which might well exceed whatever fare it could then recover. In practice, the train company just has to write it off and try to learn from what happened and improve its operations so it doesn't lose appeals.
OR Alternative readings attempting to reinstate a liability to pay the normal fare: When the passenger's liability to pay is removed, that implicitly forfeits the rights that were associated with that payment and so the Penalty Fare is implicitly rescinded? "not liable to pay the penalty fare" should be read as "the penalty fare is rescinded"? "charged under paragraph (1)" may be found not to have happened by the Appeal Panel so the entire process automatically has "eaten its own tail" and fallen away?)

5 (5) Subject to paragraph (6), a penalty fare charged under paragraph (1) to a person travelling by or present on a train authorises that person to—
(a) travel by that train as far as, but no further than, the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call; and
(b) exit the relevant station described in sub-paragraph (a), including exiting through any compulsory ticket area.
...
16 (11) Where the relevant Appeal Panel—
(a) notifies the operator that an appeal has been allowed; or
(b) fails to adhere to the time period specified in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2,
the appellant is not liable to pay the penalty fare in question.
(12) If the appellant referred to in paragraph (11) has paid the penalty fare, or part of it, the operator on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged must repay to the appellant the amount
paid within the period of 10 working days, beginning with whichever is the earlier of—
(a) the day on which that operator receives notification that the appeal has been allowed; or
(b) the day on which the time period specified in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2 expires.

But we are straying off-topic. We have seen people on here with successful appeals having their penalties refunded in full, as per the regulations.