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Penalty Fare Appeal - Station was Unknowingly Open

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Harrison1

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Hi! I have recently been fined £104 for getting on a train without a ticket: only a ticket code. The ticket code was valid from Kirkby station, though I got on at the station before, Headbolt Lane, hoping to buy a new ticket there for reasons stated later (Headbolt Lane is only a one minute and a half journey to Kirkby, btw). I am hoping to appeal this fine, as though I have been told Headbolt was open, it really didn't look it, and quite a few people got fined! Below is the statement for my appeal. Any advise as to making it a successful appeal would be greatly appreciated! Some context: you cannot use E-Tickets in Liverpool. Only paper tickets are valid.


The train I paid for online from Kirkby to Manchester Victoria (changing from Liverpool Central to Liverpool Lime Street on the way) was cancelled, so I instead walked to Headbolt Lane to get a new ticket from Headbolt to Lime Street; Lime Street to Victoria. Upon arriving, however, the ticket office didn't appear to be open.

A group of people ahead of me walked up to the doors, but turned away and got on a train when the doors wouldn't open, as I did. There were also no lights on in the station that I could see.

The last four times I have travelled between Manchester and Headbolt Lane, Headbolt's station has been closed with scaffolding blocking the entrance. Previously, there had been staff telling people to just get your ticket where you get off, and inform staff there the ticket office was closed. Though there were no staff at all on any platforms at Headbolt, I assumed it would be the same, given how recent that procedure was. I almost always get asked by a conductor on the train itself for my ticket, but this never happened on this journey, and I couldn't find a conductor walking through the train. I presume this was because of how packed full the train was, with a football match happening in Liverpool.

When I arrived at Liverpool Central to exchange to Lime Street, I showed a member of staff my original ticket's collection code from Kirkby, and told her I wanted to buy a new one from Headbolt - but was instead issued a fine. The staff member phoned Headbolt Lane, who told her that the station was able to print tickets, and that you just had to knock on a window behind the platform where two members of staff were. There was nobody and no sign to direct me to this window. While being fined, there were a group of people behind me who were also being fined, having made the same mistake, and routinely got on the train assuming it could still be paid for at the destination - as had been the case prior.

While I understand that Headbolt Lane's current condition is temporary, it was in no way advertised, and I don't believe I should be paying a fine because of that.

Other information: I have a 16-25 railcard, which my original ticket was paid for with. This happened today: 25th Aug.
 

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30907

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Welcome to the forum.

1. An offpeak return is valid for travel on any train on a Sunday, so I don't understand why you walked to Headbolt Lane (which is further away) instead of just waiting for the next train.

2. Was this the outbound or return journey? The screenshot says the outbound was only valid on 15 August!

Please could you upload a screenshot of the notice you received, as it may help clarify.
 

JBuchananGB

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This is a curious situation. It seems your ticket was issued on 15 August, with a collection code. Surely when you travelled out from Manchester on 15 August you would have collected the tickets at Manchester. The return ticket would have been valid on 25 August from Kirkby. If you presented that at Liverpool Central there would have been no problem. Did you not collect ticket at Manchester on 15th?
 

Harrison1

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This is a curious situation. It seems your ticket was issued on 15 August, with a collection code. Surely when you travelled out from Manchester on 15 August you would have collected the tickets at Manchester. The return ticket would have been valid on 25 August from Kirkby. If you presented that at Liverpool Central there would have been no problem. Did you not collect ticket at Manchester on 15th?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

No, good eye! I only realised this as I got home hours later, but I *must* have printed out the return tickets along with the outbound. If I did, I must have lost them? But I didn't realise that at the time, and would have at least tried to print them if that was an option. As I say, that old ticket was invalid for my new route anyway, following the cancellation.

I think it's moreso the station not appearing open that I don't know will recieve a successful appeal?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Welcome to the forum.

1. An offpeak return is valid for travel on any train on a Sunday, so I don't understand why you walked to Headbolt Lane (which is further away) instead of just waiting for the next train.

2. Was this the outbound or return journey? The screenshot says the outbound was only valid on 15 August!

Please could you upload a screenshot of the notice you received, as it may help clarify.
I wasn't at Kirkby station, I was notified of the cancelled route and walked to Headbolt as it's closer to me, to get a new ticket for a new route. I should probably clarify that better in the appeal.

This was the return ticket, but as I talked about with another user, I must have had the original return ticket printed out already and forgot! But regardless, that journey was cancelled. It's more about the new journey and how best to appeal.
 
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BongoStar

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More experienced members will provide better advise if the fact pattern is clear.

Would it be correct to say that you got on a train without a possession of a valid ticket, while getting on at a station where you could have got one? Or that is how it appeared to be to the inspector?
 

gray1404

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Please upload a copy of the penalty fare notice with your name, address, date of birth and reference number retracted.
 

Harrison1

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More experienced members will provide better advise if the fact pattern is clear.

Would it be correct to say that you got on a train without a possession of a valid ticket, while getting on at a station where you could have got one? Or that is how it appeared to be to the inspector?
Yes, that's correct! I could have got a ticket at Headbolt Lane, but was reasonably unaware of this, as well as others.
 

BongoStar

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Yes, that's correct! I could have got a ticket at Headbolt Lane, but was reasonably unaware of this, as well as others.

Sadly being unaware is not an excuse. As mentioned above, if you upload a copy of the PF and other documents received, experienced members will be able to advise if you can appeal on technicalities.
 

Belperpete

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Sadly being unaware is not an excuse. As mentioned above, if you upload a copy of the PF and other documents received, experienced members will be able to advise if you can appeal on technicalities.
The OP did attempt to get a ticket, but found the ticket office closed. Expecting people to know that you have to go round the back and knock on a window, without any signage, is surely unrealistic (and reminds me of that episode of Hitchhikers Guide where the planning application was clearly on public display - in a locked filing cabinet).

As regards the OP's original ticket, this is irrelevant as he didn't have it with him. I would recommend that he doesn't even mention it on his appeal - just stick to the relevant facts. Which are that he went to Headbolt Lane intending to buy a ticket, but found the ticket office apparently closed. He therefore boarded the train intending to buy the ticket at his destination as he had been instructed to do on several previous occasions. On arrival at Liverpool, he was informed that there were staff on duty at Headbolt Lane who could have issued a ticket, if he had walked around the back and knocked on a window, However, there was no readily apparently signage to this effect.
 

island

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If this goes to court, the burden of proof will be on the passenger to show there was no facilities for obtaining a ticket at the station where the journey began.

If there is no proof available, I would strongly advise paying the sum demanded before things escalate.
 

Belperpete

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When I arrived at Liverpool Central to exchange to Lime Street, I showed a member of staff my original ticket's collection code from Kirkby, and told her I wanted to buy a new one from Headbolt - but was instead issued a fine.
I don't understand why you showed a collection code for a ticket that wasn't valid for the journey you had made from Headbolt Lane? If your intention was to buy a ticket, why didn't you just say that? By showing a collection code for a ticket from Kirby, you could have led them to suspect that you were attempting to short-fare.

And if the back office have looked into it, they might also have seen that the collection code that you tried to use to get through the barriers, the ticket had already been collected. Which would look even more suspicious.

So it is important to determine if they are investigating you for simply travelling without a ticket, or for something more serious.
 

BongoStar

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OP is better of accepting that the situation is not in his favour.

1. He assumed Headbolt office was closed based on previous experience. At the same time, previously there were staff telling passengers to buy ticket at destination whereas on this occasion there were none.

2. There was no signage or indication that office is closed. Natural assumption is that it is open and one should go there, if closed, collect evidence and then get on train. Here, when the officers at Lime tried to believe OP and called the Headbolt office, he confirmed it was open. Trust was broken there on authenticity of OP narrative.

3. OP could have appeared to use a ticket bought by someone else and showing collection code only. Ie double dipping. As mentioned by Belperpete above, if they were to check the back end, then it's a collected ticket. You can't collect a ticket twice. If you have lost it, tough luck usually.

4. Admitting to short faring

If OP can post the PF or fine received, experienced members can assist.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Here, when the officers at Lime tried to believe OP and called the Headbolt office
Just a point - in the local dialect, the name of the main station in Liverpool reduces to 'Lime Street' rather than 'Lime'. Similarly, I would expect Headbolt Lane to remain as that rather than 'Headbolt': it's fairly standard in British English (including Scouse) for street names to retain the 'Street/Road/Avenue/Square/etc.' element.

A good few years ago when I was stopped in London by some American tourists who asked for directions to 'Leicester' I got quite some way through explaining how to find St Pancras station for an InterCity train before realizing they wanted Leicester Square.
 

30907

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1. I agree that the original ticket is less than relevant.
I suggest the OP's best chance of a successful appeal is that they believed, based on previous experience, that Headbolt Lane had no open ticket office.
However, they still haven't uploaded a copy of the PF so we can see what was said at Lime St.

2. One thing that puzzles me about the original ticket - if it was issued from Manchester Vic to Kirkby, why was it done as ToD (to be collected) not as an e-ticket? Not that (I think) anything depends on this.
 

John R

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2. One thing that puzzles me about the original ticket - if it was issued from Manchester Vic to Kirkby, why was it done as ToD (to be collected) not as an e-ticket? Not that (I think) anything depends on this.
Whenever I buy a ticket online I collect it at the most appropriate station. I prefer to have a piece of card in my pocket instead of relying on my phone. Likewise I have a plastic card railcard. So I don't see what's puzzling about it at all.
 

Fawkes Cat

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2. One thing that puzzles me about the original ticket - if it was issued from Manchester Vic to Kirkby, why was it done as ToD (to be collected) not as an e-ticket?
Kirkby now only has Merseyrail services as the Northern service to Manchester now starts at Headbolt Lane. So as Merseyrail doesn't do e-tickets, paper (i.e. ToD) will now be needed.
 

30907

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Whenever I buy a ticket online I collect it at the most appropriate station. I prefer to have a piece of card in my pocket instead of relying on my phone. Likewise I have a plastic card railcard. So I don't see what's puzzling about it at all.
Fair point
Kirkby now only has Merseyrail services as the Northern service to Manchester now starts at Headbolt Lane. So as Merseyrail doesn't do e-tickets, paper (i.e. ToD) will now be needed.
I knew you couldn't collect, but didn't realise you couldn't get TOD to a MR station, sorry.
 

Fawkes Cat

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I knew you couldn't collect, but didn't realise you couldn't get TOD to a MR station, sorry.
I think we may be rather at cross purposes (and apologies to OP for this digression): Merseyrail isn't too worried about how you obtain your ticket - but (for practical purposes) only paper tickets are valid. So a ticket to Kirkby must be a small orange piece of cardboard, as it is only served by Merseyrail: an e-ticket (a ticket that you show on your phone) won't be issued to Kirkby. You might have bought your ticket using your phone - but you will have to collect it as a paper ticket before travelling.
 

Bletchleyite

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I knew you couldn't collect, but didn't realise you couldn't get TOD to a MR station, sorry.

You can collect, and you can get TOD.

You can't get e-tickets issued for most flows involving Merseyrail (though if one is issued it is valid, there is the odd flow where it could be).
 

JBuchananGB

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The OP stated that they had been "fined £104" for travelling with only a ticket code.

We have established that he boarded a train at Headbolt Lane without a ticket and travelled to Liverpool Central.

He says the ticket office at Headbolt Lane was inconspicuous and he couldn't find it. Merseyrail officers at Liverpool Central said that Headbolt Lane ticket office had been open at the time. The OP presented a ticket purchase confirmation for the return portion of a ticket from Manchester to Kirkby.

In the past Merseyrail officers at Liverpool Central have been known to direct passengers with ToD codes to the Shop at Liverpool Central to collect their tickets, but as the OP's ticket would have already been collected before the outward trip from Manchester to Kirby, this would not have been applicable in this case.

The Anytime Single fare from Headbolt Lane to Liverpool Central is £4.80. The OP has not uploaded a (suitably redacted) version of the document with which he was issued, but if it was a penalty fare of £104, it should have an option to pay within 21 days an amount of £54. Probably the best thing to do is just pay that amount.
 
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Harrison1

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The OP stated that they had been "fined £104" for travelling with only a ticket code. We have established that he boarded a train at Headbolt Lane without a ticket and travelled to Liverpool Central. He says the ticket office at Headbolt Lane was inconspicuous and he couldn't find it. Merseyrail officers at Liverpool Central said that Headbolt Lane ticket office had been open at the time. The OP presented a ticket purchase confirmation for the return portion of a ticket from Manchester to Kirkby. In the past Merseyrail officers at Liverpool Central have been known to direct passengers with ToD codes to the Shop at Liverpool Central to collect their tickets, but as the OP's ticket would have already been collected before the outward trip from Manchester to Kirby, this would not have been applicable in this case. The Anytime Single fare from Headbolt Lane to Liverpool Central is £4.80. The OP has not uploaded a (suitably redacted) version of the document with which he was issued, but if it was a penalty fare of £104, it should have an option to pay within 21 days an amount of £54. Probably the best thing to do is just pay that amount.
Apologies for not replying - I wish I had been emailed a notification more than just the first time someone responded! You guys really know your stuff! My penalty fare is attached below. Is there anything I can do on this appeal, or appeal 2 and 3? Or is it best to pay, as some of you have said?

Also - do I have 21 days before the fine goes up to £104 regardless or appeals? Or is payment frozen until the appeal is conceded, one way or the other?
 

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WesternLancer

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Apologies for not replying - I wish I had been emailed a notification more than just the first time someone responded! You guys really know your stuff! My penalty fare is attached below. Is there anything I can do on this appeal, or appeal 2 and 3? Or is it best to pay, as some of you have said?

Also - do I have 21 days before the fine goes up to £104 regardless or appeals? Or is payment frozen until the appeal is conceded, one way or the other?
Clock is stopped on the deadline to pay and get reduced rate whilst appeals being considered. Then restarts after appeal result given iirc.

then paused again if you go to stage 2 appeal.

Probably nothing to lose by appealing but best to construct appeal wording with advice from penalty fare experts here on the forum.
 

Belperpete

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When you say "this appeal", does that mean you have already submitted a first appeal? Because if you haven't, I think that time is fast running out. As stated on the penalty fare notice, the 21 days to pay the reduced £54.80 penalty expires on the 15th September - I.e. TOMORROW! My understanding is that is also the deadline for appealing, but others may be able to give more definitive advice. If you haven't yet appealed, you need to act FAST. You cannot just sit on these kinds of things.

My understanding is that appealing stops the clock, assuming of course that you have got your appeal in on time. Others will hopefully explain how long you then have to pay the reduced penalty if all three appeals fail, or if you decide not to persue a second or third appeal. TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if the first and second appeals fail, because it is only at the third appeal that it goes to independent arbiter. Of course, if you stop the clock at one day before the deadline, and if it then restarts from that point as suggested by the previous poster, you may then miss the opportunity to pay the reduced penalty and have cost yourself £50.

Personally I would have appealled on the basis that the ticket office at Headbolt Lane was apparently closed, with all the lights out and the doors locked. You were told at Lime Street that you could have got a ticket at Headbolt Lane by going round the back and knocking on a particular window, but it is unreasonable to expect passengers unfamiliar with the station to know this. If you do appeal, keep to the point that you did not buy a ticket at Headbolt Lane because there was apparently no means of doing so - do not make any mention of what happened on previous occasions, what other passengers did, or how long you had before your train departed, as these are irrelevant and could weaken your appeal if you inadvertently give the impression that part of the reason for not buying a ticket was because you left insufficient time. Also leave out all mention of your other ticket - your mentioning it to the collector at Lime Street only complicated things.

You should also point out that you should have been allowed to purchase a ticket at the first suitable point, at Lime Street. You should recognise that fare is still due, and offer to pay that fare. TBH, it would have probably looked better if you had been a bit quicker in doing so.
 
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JBuchananGB

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It is somewhat irrelevant as to whether the clock stops ticking during the appeal process, as the payment due date is indeed tomorrow. If the OP still intends to appeal, then the prudent thing to do is to pay the reduced penalty fare now, and also submit an appeal. If the appeal is successful, part or all of the penalty fare might be returned.
 

WesternLancer

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It is somewhat irrelevant as to whether the clock stops ticking during the appeal process, as the payment due date is indeed tomorrow. If the OP still intends to appeal, then the prudent thing to do is to pay the reduced penalty fare now, and also submit an appeal. If the appeal is successful, part or all of the penalty fare might be returned.
I agree with this approach. And some excellent advice given in the previous post on the basis to make an Appeal. Post #25 from @Belperpete

But the payment and Appeal deadlines must not be missed esp if £50 can be saved!
 

Harrison1

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Yes understood, this is why I checked in on the forum again yesterday. Though as far as I was aware, there were no updates to read. Thanks for your help, I'm redrafting my appeal now and will update of result. Great advice, thanks guys!
 

WesternLancer

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Yes understood, this is why I checked in on the forum again yesterday. Though as far as I was aware, there were no updates to read. Thanks for your help, I'm redrafting my appeal now and will update of result. Great advice, thanks guys!
You may want to to post your appeal wording here so it can be checked if you have time.

Obv appeals must be submitted to place instructed on paperwork issued with the penalty. Ie not to customer services or something like that.
 

Harrison1

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Hi guys, appeal unsuccessful! I'll be doing another appeal tomorrow anyways, but it looks like I'll likely have to pay it, right?

If there's any angle anyone thinks I can take from the image below, I'd love to hear it (apologies for all the scribbling, I wasn't sure what was confidential and what didn't matter).

Thanks for the advice so far.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

FYI - a postcode is slightly visible, but it's not mine, it's what the company put on.
 

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