Penalty fare amount.

[KMoo]

Hi Everyone,

I got a penalty fare in May (yes I know I should’ve paid it then and there but I stupidly got on the wrong time train and got an penalty fare) but due to me being unemployed I have not been able to pay the fare and I have just been able to be in the financial situation to pay it off but the bill has gone from £170 to over £10,000. I am ready to vomit and I don’t know what to do. I have emailed TransPennine but I really don’t know what is happening or why it has gone to so expensive in a month since I last looked.

Thank you for reading this and I’m sorry if it doesn’t make any sense I’m genuinely panicking and my hands are shaking.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==

Hi everyone!

it seems I’ve ****ed it majorly, I needed to pay the bill by the 15th of July so I now have criminal proceedings happening against me. I am so scared right now.

I have not received any letter from the court, what do I do?

 

[Vexed]

Are you looking at the amount to pay on TPE's payment website? That amount is ridiculously high for such a short period.

Unfortunately I can't find the thread but I do recall a previous case where TPE put a very high amount on the website as a "placeholder" which they never intend for someone to pay. They might have sent a letter and put that as a placeholder value to stop you paying it in the meantime. Did you give the correct postal address?

For the best advice please upload your Penalty Fare slip which was issued on the train/station (redact reference number, your name, etc) and any other letter/emails you've received from and sent to TPE. And maybe a redacted screenshot of the payment site.

This is easy for me to say but try not to panic and get some sleep. Others will be posting in the morning with more advice once you upload the documents. You will be able to sort this, and that £10,000 figure is almost certainly much higher what you will pay once you engage with TPE.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==

Edit: it seems while I was writing you edited your post about court documents. For the best advice please upload a redacted version of these as well.

Also did you appeal the penalty fare at the time (regardless of the outcome)?

 

[KMoo]

Hi everyone,

I’ve been asked to share some documents, so please find attached everything I have, as I’ve missed the date I’m assuming I’m under criminal proceedings now but I have still not received a letter from the courts. Please find attached what is asked. I’m assuming the £10,000 is legal fees but I really don’t know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==

Are you looking at the amount to pay on TPE's payment website? That amount is ridiculously high for such a short period.

Unfortunately I can't find the thread but I do recall a previous case where TPE put a very high amount on the website as a "placeholder" which they never intend for someone to pay. They might have sent a letter and put that as a placeholder value to stop you paying it in the meantime. Did you give the correct postal address?

For the best advice please upload your Penalty Fare slip which was issued on the train/station (redact reference number, your name, etc) and any other letter/emails you've received from and sent to TPE. And maybe a redacted screenshot of the payment site.

This is easy for me to say but try not to panic and get some sleep. Others will be posting in the morning with more advice once you upload the documents. You will be able to sort this, and that £10,000 figure is almost certainly much higher what you will pay once you engage with TPE.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==

Edit: it seems while I was writing you edited your post about court documents. For the best advice please upload a redacted version of these as well.

Also did you appeal the penalty fare at the time (regardless of the outcome)?

Please find attached the redacted documents and everything, and I did not appeal as I was guilty and I really didn’t know what I was doing, I’ve never had this happen to me before

 

[Vexed]

£10,000 in legal fees is frankly bonkers as these in house departments do the same work every day. This hasn't even progressed to a physical court appearance yet! It's all been on paper.

I would draft a letter covering the following points. Keep it short as they have heard the sob stories before. Don't use AI as it's obvious and insincere.

- you acknowledge that you made a mistake by boarding the wrong train and will take greater care in the future
- you would like confirmation as to whether the Penalty Fare has been withdrawn and an explanation for the excessively large amount on the payment portal
- that you were unable to initially afford the Penalty Fare but are able to make a payment now.

Others will be along with more advice soon, don't send anything until you get feedback on the draft. What have you already emailed to TPE?

 

[KMoo]

£10,000 in legal fees is frankly bonkers as these in house departments do the same work every day. This hasn't even progressed to a physical court appearance yet! It's all been on paper.

I would draft a letter covering the following points. Keep it short as they have heard the sob stories before. Don't use AI as it's obvious and insincere.

- you acknowledge that you made a mistake by boarding the wrong train and will take greater care in the future
- you would like confirmation as to whether the Penalty Fare has been withdrawn and an explanation for the excessively large amount on the payment portal
- that you were unable to initially afford the Penalty Fare but are able to make a payment now.

Others will be along with more advice soon, don't send anything until you get feedback on the draft. What have you already emailed to TPE?

Yeah £10,000 does seem like quite a lot to me as well, I did not know that the fee had gone to that much due to me missing my penalty letter I emailed them

“
Dear Sir/Madam,

Hi I got a fine from yourselves the 21 May 2024, I have gone to look at my bill and it is now saying I owe £10,000 I was wondering why this is happening because I was going to pay this at the end of this month, but cannot afford it at this much, has this gone to court without me knowing?

Please find a screenshot of the bill I see when looking”

I have now drafted this, I am very sorry if it doesn’t sound good I’m severely dyslexic and spelling and grammar is not my strong point.

“Dear Sir/Madam,

I have seen that I missed the final deadline before my penalty fare would go to criminal proceedings, is there anyway of me paying my bill without having to resort to going to court.

I have learnt from my mistake and I will make sure to double check when it comes to the times of my train ticket, I am genuinley sorry for what has happened here and it will never happen again.

Has my penalty fare been withdrawn? And may I have an explanation for the high fare on my payment portal.

Due to unemployment I was unable to pay the penalty fare but I am now in the position to pay the fare.

Kind regards,
My name”

 

[furlong]

£10,000 is a figure this train company seems to add into their system at random times when they don't expect you to pay. It is an appalling thing to do, but they still seem to do it. They do not expect you to pay that amount, and frankly, the company needs to be taken to task for making it look as though they are seeking such a ridiculous sum. You should report the impact of this practice on you to Transport Focus and ask them to investigate and try to knock some sense into them. (If they don't want you to pay, just disable any payment option, but don't show a deliberately-wrong amount as due!)

Did you appeal against the Penalty Fare? You should have done to extend the amount of time for paying it. With 3 appeals you could have given yourself a few more weeks and at the lower amount.
The administration fee for late payment is also something which has no real basis in law. The charge already goes up from £50 to £100 if not paid promptly and there should be no need to add anything more on top unless they begin action in the civil courts.

The whole thing is in desperate need of a regulator with teeth. (If a late payment charge is really needed, it should simply be added to the regulations.)

 

[KMoo]

£10,000 is a figure this train company seems to insert add into their system at random times when they don't expect you to pay. It is an appalling thing to do, but they still seem to do it. They do not expect you to pay that amount, and frankly, the company needs to be taken to task for making it look as though they are seeking such a ridiculous sum. You should report the impact of this practice on you to Transport Focus and ask them to investigate and try to knock some sense into them. (If they don't want you to pay, just disable any payment option, but don't show a deliberately-wrong amount as due!)

Did you appeal against the Penalty Fare? You should have done to extend the amount of time for paying it. With 3 appeals you could have given yourself a few more weeks and at the lower amount.
The administration fee for late payment is also something which has no real basis in law. The charge already goes up from £50 to £100 if not paid promptly and there should be no need to add anything more on top unless they begin action in the civil courts.

The whole thing is in desperate need of a regulator with teeth. (If a late payment charge is really needed, it should simply be added to the regulations.)

Thank god, I have never been more happy to hear that this is some cruel thing the train company do, I genuinely haven’t been able to sleep because I felt so nauseous when I saw that amount when I went to see the portal, I can’t even start to tell you how much distress it put me through. I will absolutely report this thank you for telling me about this company!

Unfortunately I did not appeal and it seems I should have come here sooner and that it was a stupid move not to appeal, I thought as I am guilty I shouldn’t.

Is it best to now just email TransPennie and apologise and see where we can go from here without it going to court? Please see above an email I have drafted but have no sent yet, I apologise for any grammar and spelling mistakes I am quite tired now but I still feel sick to my stomach so I don’t think I’ll be getting any sleep soon.

 

[furlong]

Yes - contact them on Monday and hopefully they'll still accept the last figure they asked for and adjust it in the portal.

 

[KMoo]

Yes - contact them on Monday and hopefully they'll still accept the last figure they asked for and adjust it in the portal.

Thank you so much for your help!!!! I genuinely think I would’ve lost a lot of sleep if it wasn’t for this forum so thank you.

 

[John Palmer]

I stupidly got on the wrong time train

Can you please clarify this? Assuming that you held a ticket of some sort, was it an Advance ticket that wasn't valid for the train you boarded (in which case you had no obvious grounds for appeal against a penalty fare), or was it a ticket subject to a time restriction that rendered it invalid for the train service you used, though valid in all other respects? In the second case, you should have been charged the difference between the cost of your ticket and the lowest priced fare for the journey you made (National Rail Conditions of Travel, condition 9.5). If that was the case then you had grounds for appealing the penalty fare. The primary period of 21 days allowed for appeal against a penalty fare has long since expired, but the Appeal Panel has a discretion to allow a longer period within which it will accept an appeal for consideration. Though the prospects of it doing so in your case do not look good, the relevant appeal panel might be persuaded to do so on the basis that Trans Pennine's current demand for a penalty fare payment of £10,028.40 (as evidenced by your screenshot) is so grossly in excess of any lawful penalty fare that you feel obliged to attempt an appeal out of time.

 

[KMoo]

Can you please clarify this? Assuming that you held a ticket of some sort, was it an Advance ticket that wasn't valid for the train you boarded (in which case you had no obvious grounds for appeal against a penalty fare), or was it a ticket subject to a time restriction that rendered it invalid for the train service you used, though valid in all other respects? In the second case, you should have been charged the difference between the cost of your ticket and the lowest priced fare for the journey you made (National Rail Conditions of Travel, condition 9.5). If that was the case then you had grounds for appealing the penalty fare. The primary period of 21 days allowed for appeal against a penalty fare has long since expired, but the Appeal Panel has a discretion to allow a longer period within which it will accept an appeal for consideration. Though the prospects of it doing so in your case do not look good, the relevant appeal panel might be persuaded to do so on the basis that Trans Pennine's current demand for a penalty fare payment of £10,028.40 (as evidenced by your screenshot) is so grossly in excess of any lawful penalty fare that you feel obliged to attempt an appeal out of time.

Hi,

I’m severely dyslexic and I read the time on my ticket as 12pm instead of 2pm, so I got on a train which was 2hrs early which means I had an invalid ticket for that train.

My own dumb fault, should’ve been more careful when buying and reading my ticket.

 

[John Palmer]

I take it this was an Advance ticket, then, so NRCoT 9.5 is not relevant. But I gather that dyslexia is recognised in the railway industry as a disability for which it has a legal obligation to make reasonable adjustments. If you are able to show that dyslexia is likely to have affected your reading of the ticket, it is a basis for appeal of the penalty fare on the ground that it is a compelling reason why, in the particular circumstances of the case, you should not be liable to pay it (Regulation 16(3) Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018). First, however, you would have to get over the hurdle that the usual time limit for making an appeal has expired.

 

[KMoo]

I take it this was an Advance ticket, then, so NRCoT 9.5 is not relevant. But I gather that dyslexia is recognised in the railway industry as a disability for which it has a legal obligation to make reasonable adjustments. If you are able to show that dyslexia is likely to have affected your reading of the ticket, it is a basis for appeal of the penalty fare on the ground that it is a compelling reason why, in the particular circumstances of the case, you should not be liable to pay it (Regulation 16(3) Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018). First, however, you would have to get over the hurdle that the usual time limit for making an appeal has expired.

I have a 30 page dyslexia report which says everything I struggle with and was done by a professional when I was in university which I’m assuming I could use as evidence, would you suggest I open an appeal and see where I can go?

 

[John Palmer]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained! Trans Pennine uses Penalty Services Limited as its appeal handling body. Full details of its appeal arrangements are at https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/help/revenue-protection-policy/unpaid-fare-notice, including a link to a page for making an appeal online. You will need to make use of the penalty fare reference that appears on the 'Final Reminder' notice you have already uploaded here. Your appeal will need to meet the requirements of Regulation 16 of the Penalty Fares Regulations, which you can check at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366. Your notice of appeal should explicitly invite the appeal panel to accept your appeal for consideration under Regulation 16(1)(b) as being "within such longer period (than the conventional 21 day period) as the relevant Appeal Panel may allow", on the basis I suggested in post #10, and should request the panel to uphold the appeal on the 'compelling reason' basis suggested in post #12, i.e. make specific reference to Regulation 16(3)(d) in your notice of appeal, explaining that your dyslexia constitutes a compelling reason why you should not be required to pay the penalty fare charged, as shown by the report referred to in your post #13.

If the appeal panel refuses to consider your appeal on the basis that it is out of time, I see nothing in the wording of the Penalty Fares Regulations to prevent your from treating such a refusal as a notification that your appeal has not been allowed, which would open the way for you to attempt a second stage appeal under Regulation 17 (and, in turn, a final appeal under Regulation 18 if the Regulation 17 appeal is also refused on the same basis), though the ability to challenge an 'out of time' decision in this way has not, to my knowledge, ever been tested.

Don't be surprised if Penalty Services turns down any appeal you make, as the time that has elapsed since the penalty fare was charged means that your chances of having it reconsidered by an appeal body are now slim. Nobody, however, could have anticipated being confronted with a a claimed indebtedness in excess of £10,000 after the time for appealing had expired, and what amounts to a grossly exhorbitant demand byTrans Pennine ought to be challenged.

 

[some bloke]

the relevant appeal panel might be persuaded to do so on the basis that Trans Pennine's current demand .... is so grossly in excess of any lawful penalty fare that you feel obliged to attempt an appeal out of time.

And would perhaps be obliged for financial reasons, if we take the statement about 10K at face value?

Maybe added in the appeal itself could be that the shock of seeing the "statement that I owe over £10,000 which I have subsequently learned may well be untrue" seems to have fulfilled to an appreciable degree the punitive element?

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely nobody in their right mind thought they would have to pay ten thousand pounds by way of penalty fare!

 

[KMoo]

Surely nobody in their right mind thought they would have to pay ten thousand pounds by way of penalty fare!

I’ve truly never had this happen to me so it was pure and utter panic on my part. Seeing a fare going from £170 to £10,000 was a shocking thing to see at 1am.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, the unpaid fare is £29.40 (so could possibly be the Anytime Day Single fare for a journey from Grimsby to Sheffield, or vice-versa). Is the other £10,000 just some temporary placeholder thing whilst TPE now decide what they are going to do next. (The amount to pay was presumably originally £100, and possibly would have been just £50, plus the unpaid fare had payment been paid promptly by mid June, but then increased to £135 plus the unpaid fare due to non/late payment, and seemingly still not paid by mid July). Might TPE now be planning to take the OP to court?

 

[KMoo]

So, the unpaid fare is £29.40 (so could possibly be the Anytime Day Single fare for a journey from Grimsby to Sheffield, or vice-versa). Is the other £10,000 just some temporary placeholder thing whilst TPE now decide how much their admin fees now need to be. (Was £100, possibly would have been reduced to £50 plus the unpaid fare had payment been paid promptly by mid June, but then increased to £135 plus the unpaid fare due to non/late payment, and seemingly still not paid by mid July). Might TPE now be planning to take the OP to court?

I’m assuming that is what they might be planning to do, but I will email them tomorrow and see if there is anyway to settle out of court due to financial reasons.

Tho it seems emailing them is a lengthy process and can take up to 21 days to reply back to me through a ticket.

I have not yet received a court letter.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have not yet received a court letter.

Have to say that you might well be. Good luck in sorting this out!

 

[some bloke]

I will email them tomorrow

If you post a draft on here people can comment.

 

[KMoo]

Have to say that you might well be. Good luck in sorting this out!

Yeah I have accepted it’s probably going to be a court date for me but hoping if it goes to court I can ask for a payment plan or something.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==

If you post a draft on here people can comment.

Again due to my dyslexia I can’t say I’m very good at drafting emails which sound good

“
Dear Sir/Madam,

I have seen that I missed the final deadline before my penalty fare would go to criminal proceedings, is there anyway of me paying my bill without having to resort to going to court.

I have learnt from my mistake and I will make sure to double check when it comes to the times of my train ticket, I am genuinley sorry for what has happened here and it will never happen again.

Has my penalty fare been withdrawn? And may I have an explanation for the high fare on my payment portal.

Due to unemployment I was unable to pay the penalty fare but I am now in the position to pay the fare.

Kind regards,
My name”

 

[some bloke]

Yeah I have accepted it’s probably going to be a court date for me but hoping if it goes to court I can ask for a payment plan or something.

If they start a prosecution they can drop it any time, so you can keep trying.

 

[KMoo]

If they start a prosecution they can drop it any time, so you can keep trying.

So still keep trying to get in contact with them and hope they will accept an out of court as they can drop a prosecution?

 

[some bloke]

If they refuse you can keep asking, even at the court building before a hearing is due to start, by asking staff where the prosecutor is and meeting them in person.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==

In your letter you can say how you made the mistake, (briefly) mentioning dyslexia if you think it may have contributed significantly, with some evidence of it.

What did you say at the time? That may be relevant to what you write, and relevant to how you respond if they threaten prosecution again or start a prosecution.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==

Has my penalty fare been withdrawn? And may I have an explanation for the high fare on my payment portal.

You can say (so they don't have to check their system to find out what you mean) that you tried to pay but the portal said you owed over 10K.

 

[KMoo]

If they refuse you can keep asking, even at the court building before a hearing is due to start, by asking staff where the prosecutor is and meeting them in person.

Great that is good to know!!! Hopefully it doesn’t have to go to court.

 

[AlterEgo]

You can say (so they don't have to check their system to find out what you mean) that you tried to pay but the portal said you owed over 10K.

I’d agree with this. It does show that you tried to check and did make efforts to pay.

 

[KMoo]

If they refuse you can keep asking, even at the court building before a hearing is due to start, by asking staff where the prosecutor is and meeting them in person.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==

In your letter you can say how you made the mistake, (briefly) mentioning dyslexia if you think it may have contributed significantly, with some evidence of it.

What did you say at the time? That may be relevant to what you write, and relevant to how you respond if they threaten prosecution again or start a prosecution.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==


You can say (so they don't have to check their system to find out what you mean) that you tried to pay but the portal said you owed over 10K.

At the time I apologised for getting on the wrong train, and said that I am dyslexic and it can make it hard for me to notice when I’ve made a mistake but they say invalid ticket so penalty fare and again I didn’t really have anything to argue because it was my fault.

Would either of the evidence I have produced be good to send with my email?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I’d agree with this. It does show that you tried to check and did make efforts to pay.

Isn't that possibly because two separate payment deadlines were ignored/missed? (Mid June + Mid July)?

 

[Titfield]

I’d agree with this. It does show that you tried to check and did make efforts to pay.

The system log should show all the times that page was accessed, by whom and any changes made.