Penalty Fare After Approaching Collector

[RPI]

The penalty fare has been correctly issued, exactly what PF'S are intended for, if they do feel aggrieved then appeal.... that's what the appeals process is for.... voila

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The penalty fare has been correctly issued, exactly what PF'S are intended for, if they do feel aggrieved then appeal.... that's what the appeals process is for.... voila

If the correct signage wasn't in place, then the Penalty Fare should never have been issued! But yes, on the face of it, it would appear that it is legitimate.

 

[gray1404]

There doesn't appear to be any grounds for appealing this. As others have said, only if the signs are not sufficient.

 

[Clip]

It's cases like these where you might pay up then appeal on multiple grounds - firstly the real reason you think the treatment was unfair, followed by some technicalities. (E.g. were there correct Penalty Fares notices at the station of origin? The rules changed earlier this year and many stations still do not comply.) If the first part of your appeal makes the people assessing your case sympathetic, then the technicalities give them a mechanism to allow it.

So here we have yet another case of the passenger failing to do what is expected of them and correctly gets issued a PF for it yet here we are again with you and certain other posters trying to get people off on technicalities?



Yes the railway dont get it right all the time and yes they need to be taken to task for doing just that but why are posters time and again allowed to post such things, which in all honesty on a lot of cases we see, giving them false hope?

The correct advice is pay the PF and tell your friend not to do it again. It really is that simple.

 

[John Bray]

While the PF make be valid, I do dislike the holier than thou attitude of many posters "how could anyone forget to touch in". Because we are human, and we make mistakes, because of distraction, or not noticing a little light did not flicker on an otherwise open gate at a suburban station.

Systems should be designed to handle people, not robots.

 

[6Gman]

While the PF make be valid, I do dislike the holier than thou attitude of many posters "how could anyone forget to touch in". Because we are human, and we make mistakes, because of distraction, or not noticing a little light did not flicker on an otherwise open gate at a suburban station.

Systems should be designed to handle people, not robots.

It's not so much "how could anyone forget" as "having forgotten, just pay the PF".

 

[swt_passenger]

While the PF make be valid, I do dislike the holier than thou attitude of many posters "how could anyone forget to touch in". Because we are human, and we make mistakes, because of distraction, or not noticing a little light did not flicker on an otherwise open gate at a suburban station.

Systems should be designed to handle people, not robots.

How do you tell the difference between forgetting to touch in and intentionally not touching in?

 

[WelshBluebird]

How do you tell the difference between forgetting to touch in and intentionally not touching in?

To be fair, surely with smart cards it should be easy to tell if there is a history of not touching in / out? That would be a pretty good indicator if someone is trying it on or not.

 

[najaB]

While the PF make be valid, I do dislike the holier than thou attitude of many posters "how could anyone forget to touch in".

I must've missed it but I've only seen one post that even comes close to that:

If they can't be so sure of themselves to tap in next time they travel then should they really be using contactless to travel?

Which, given the circumstances (they forgot once) and context in which it was asked (won't use the train again because they're scared it happens again), it does seem a reasonable question.

 

[al78]

While the PF make be valid, I do dislike the holier than thou attitude of many posters "how could anyone forget to touch in". Because we are human, and we make mistakes, because of distraction, or not noticing a little light did not flicker on an otherwise open gate at a suburban station.

Systems should be designed to handle people, not robots.

I agree with that principle and a system which doesn't account for human error is a flawed system, but in this case, anyone could theoretically deliberately not touch in and then claim they made a mistake if challenged. The only way to prevent that is to PF everyone who hasn't touched in, deliberate or not. It may sound harsh in this case, but on the other hand, if you cock up, you shouldn't be surprised if there are consequences, and it is an incentive to pay attention in future.

 

[furlong]

I agree with that principle and a system which doesn't account for human error is a flawed system, but in this case, anyone could theoretically deliberately not touch in and then claim they made a mistake if challenged. The only way to prevent that is to PF everyone who hasn't touched in, deliberate or not. It may sound harsh in this case, but on the other hand, if you cock up, you shouldn't be surprised if there are consequences, and it is an incentive to pay attention in future.

Parliament and the DfT (formerly the SRA) considered all this and decided where the balance is to lie. The readily visible notices at the station of origin are a crucial element of this, as seeing one of those should provide the reminder to obtain your ticket (i.e. in this case, to touch in). No penalty fare can be charged unless

at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station

.

 

[kristiang85]

While the PF make be valid, I do dislike the holier than thou attitude of many posters "how could anyone forget to touch in". Because we are human, and we make mistakes, because of distraction, or not noticing a little light did not flicker on an otherwise open gate at a suburban station.

Systems should be designed to handle people, not robots.

Indeed. Especially when you're mainly used to commuting in a city, where every station is barriered, it is easy to forget to touch out at a point where there are no gates to go through. I haven't done it, but I feel for people who make a simple mistake and get heavily punished for it (I distinctly remember a colleague coming into work in tears a few years ago because of that).

 

[najaB]

I haven't done it, but I feel for people who make a simple mistake and get heavily punished for it...

£20 doesn't qualify as 'heavily punished' in my books (and no, I'm not rich).

 

[MikeWh]

£20 doesn't qualify as 'heavily punished' in my books (and no, I'm not rich).

If £20 is 10x the fare due and you are literally scraping pennies together to make ends meet then it certainly is a heavy punishment. The fact that there are people (eg nurses) in full time employment who still have to rely on food banks is not only a damming indictment of this government but deserves a bit more sympathy from people who might not yet have reached that low.

 

[najaB]

If £20 is 10x the fare due and you are literally scraping pennies together to make ends meet then it certainly is a heavy punishment.

But much less so than the £150+ fine that a successful prosecution would result in. And much less of a burden than the higher fares they would need to pay if fare evasion wasn't dealt with.

The fact that there are people (eg nurses) in full time employment who still have to rely on food banks is not only a damming indictment of this government but deserves a bit more sympathy from people who might not yet have reached that low.

Not sure what relevance that has to a post in the Disputes & Prosecution section.

 

[gray1404]

Depends, a PF can be twice the single fare which on some journeys could be a very high amount indeed.

 

[najaB]

Depends, a PF can be twice the single fare which on some journeys could be a very high amount indeed.

Indeed. But we were specifically talking about £20.

 

[gray1404]

The point I was making is that a PF is not always a much lower amount compared to what a court could hand down. Either way, it could still be 10 x a small fare though. What I am saying it is a big jump perhaps from the usual fare and the person could really need that money if they are struggling. In short, it does seem disproportionate for a first time genuine and innocent mistake.

 

[najaB]

The point I was making is that a PF is not always a much lower amount compared to what a court could hand down. Either way, it could still be 10 x a small fare though. What I am saying it is a big jump perhaps from the usual fare and the person could really need that money if they are struggling. In short, it does seem disproportionate for a first time genuine and innocent mistake.

A passenger is always free to decline the opportunity to pay the PF and take their chances in court.

 

[shredder1]

It's not so much "how could anyone forget" as "having forgotten, just pay the PF".

Yes and rightly so, we should be penalised for being human

 

[furlong]

A passenger is always free to decline the opportunity to pay the PF

The passenger is not free to do so. If the right conditions are met, the authorised collector has the power to impose the penalty on the passenger, and if the passenger doesn't pay, it can be pursued through the civil courts. (The train company is in control of the situation, not the passenger.)

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The passenger is not free to do so. If the right conditions are met, the authorised collector has the power to impose the penalty on the passenger, and if the passenger doesn't pay, it can be pursued through the civil courts. (The train company is in control of the situation, not the passenger.)

I think the point being made is rather more practical than the correct theoretical situation which you have outlined: if a passenger refuses to pay a Penalty Fare, then in most cases it will be cancelled and prosecution will be begun.

 

[dcbwhaley]

I think the point being made is rather more practical than the correct theoretical situation which you have outlined: if a passenger refuses to pay a Penalty Fare, then in most cases it will be cancelled and prosecution will be begun.

What is the situation if the passenger cannot pay the fare? Can they give a P2P note?

 

[najaB]

The passenger is not free to do so. If the right conditions are met, the authorised collector has the power to impose the penalty on the passenger, and if the passenger doesn't pay, it can be pursued through the civil courts.

You've said exactly the same thing as I did: the passenger can choose not to pay it and end up in court.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

What is the situation if the passenger cannot pay the fare? Can they give a P2P note?

Cannot pay for what reason? Because they have no means of payment at all? Or because the ticketing facilities at their origin does not accept their means of payment (even though it is a generally acceptable means of payment)?

 

[dcbwhaley]

Cannot pay for what reason? Because they have no means of payment at all? Or because the ticketing facilities at their origin does not accept their means of payment (even though it is a generally acceptable means of payment)?

I meant unable to pay because they has insufficient funds on their person. Not every one carries several hundred pounds in cash or has that much credit available.

 

[najaB]

I meant unable to pay because they has insufficient funds on their person. Not every one carries several hundred pounds in cash or has that much credit available.

The passenger is not obliged to pay the Penalty Fare on the spot.

 

[John Bray]

How do you tell the difference between forgetting to touch in and intentionally not touching in?

By their act of contritely going to a revenue officer and proactively reporting their mistake. If I seek out the guard on a train, I'd expect them to charge me the normal fare. If I thought I'd get a PF, I might take my chances with the barriers/inspections, and that's a slippery slope to evasion.

Last year I nervously boarded a HS1 train at Broadstairs as while I planning to change at Rochester I wasn't sure when HS premiums applied, and the station had no signage. I found a guard who reassured me, but I'd have been livid if he'd given me a PF.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

By their act of contritely going to a revenue officer and proactively reporting their mistake. If I seek out the guard on a train, I'd expect them to charge me the normal fare. If I thought I'd get a PF, I might take my chances with the barriers/inspections, and that's a slippery slope to evasion.

Last year I nervously boarded a HS1 train at Broadstairs as while I planning to change at Rochester I wasn't sure when HS premiums applied, and the station had no signage. I found a guard who reassured me, but I'd have been livid if he'd given me a PF.

Penalty Fares, or indeed anything more than an ordinary excess of the appropriate difference (half the difference in the case of a return ticket), are never appropriate for change of route excesses.

 

[dcbwhaley]

By their act of contritely going to a revenue officer and proactively reporting their mistake. If I seek out the guard on a train, I'd expect them to charge me the normal fare. If I thought I'd get a PF, I might take my chances with the barriers/inspections, and that's a slippery slope to evasion.

Last year I nervously boarded a HS1 train at Broadstairs as while I planning to change at Rochester I wasn't sure when HS premiums applied, and the station had no signage. I found a guard who reassured me, but I'd have been livid if he'd given me a PF.

To put it in perspective consider a drive off at a petrol station which I did recently. I was distracted by a pretty young women asking my advice about something and drove off without paying. A few miles later I realised, turned round went back to the petrol station where I apologised and paid for the petrol. The attendant had not called the police and did not expect me to be detained and fined.