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Penalty Fair 04 Expired Railcard

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Hiya

My little brother was on the train today travelling with an expired railcard. He says its been expired for a month but he only noticed today when asked - for the record he'd been making shorter journeys where nobody checked his ticket.

He's happy to pay the fine acknowledging that whilst frustrating he was in the wrong.

He bought a railcard there and then on trainline and AFAIK thats all the officer saw.

The fines 130/180, its a lot for him. Hes on the spectrum/ADD and i cant help feel like he was either too honest or (equally likely knowing him) rude to the officer.

Has he got any recourse?

He was travelling Leicester to London via Kettering on a split ticket (Leicester - Kettering, Kettering - London). He got fined before Kettering if that makes any difference.
 

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Egg Centric

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He was travelling Leicester to London via Kettering on a split ticket (Leicester - Kettering, Kettering - London). He got fined before Kettering if that makes any difference.

Certainly does - they're supposed to do it to the nearest station unless he specifically requested otherwise and this alone is sufficient grounds to win the appeal.
 

LYradial

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The 11-33 from Leicester non stop today passed Kettering 11-52, seems to fit, but would his split be valid anyway
 

Mcr Warrior

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The 11-33 from Leicester non stop today passed Kettering 11-52, seems to fit, but would his split be valid anyway
The 1143 EMR departure from Leicester might possibly be a better fit. Would have been five minutes into its journey, if the time shown on the docket (= 1148) is correct, and was due to call next at Market Harborough at 1156, Kettering at 1206, before running non-stop to London St. Pancras. Maybe the OP can confirm?
 

furlong

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If the train stopped at Market Harborough and Kettering after this happened, unless he explicitly asked to receive a far larger penalty (and why would anyone do that?), he should have been charged £63.80 (reduced) to Market Harborough, and if he renewed his railcard immediately it could then be argued his first ticket was valid from Market Harborough to Kettering (even if it was an Advance) and his second ticket was also then valid. (Even disregarding the first ticket, working with Kettering is only a few pounds more.)
 
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Hi all, thank you so much for offering the insight.

It was the 11.43 that went through Market Harborough & Kettering. He got the fine before Market Harborough.

The 1143 EMR departure from Leicester might possibly be a better fit. Would have been five minutes into its journey, if the time shown on the docket (= 1148) is correct, and was due to call next at Market Harborough at 1156, Kettering at 1206, before running non-stop to London St. Pancras. Maybe the OP can confirm?

That all sounds correct yeah.

He had a Leicester to Kettering off-peak day return & a Kettering and London zones 1-6 Super off-peak day travelcard.
 

30907

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Hi all, thank you so much for offering the insight.

It was the 11.43 that went through Market Harborough & Kettering. He got the fine before Market Harborough.



That all sounds correct yeah.

He had a Leicester to Kettering off-peak day return & a Kettering and London zones 1-6 Super off-peak day travelcard.
In which case the second ticket was valid so only the offpeak single (£17.40 to KET/13.80 to MHR) should have been charged. Valid ground for appeal IMO.
 

Mcr Warrior

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In which case the second ticket was valid.
Do we know that for definite? Might the second ticket (the one onwards from Kettering) possibly have been inappropriately railcard discounted as well? Has the railcard now been renewed?
 

SuspectUsual

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Do we know that for definite? Might the second ticket (the one onwards from Kettering) possibly have been inappropriately railcard discounted as well?

Even if it was, at the point of being checked that ticket hadn't yet come into play, so to speak
 
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He renewed it immediately upon realising it had expired through trainline.

From what I'm understanding there may be grounds to appeal as he wasn't offered a penalty fair to an earlier station?

Likewise the Kettering to London portion of the journey may have been fine as he held his railcard at that point?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Do we know that for definite? Might the second ticket (the one onwards from Kettering) possibly have been inappropriately railcard discounted as well? Has the railcard now been renewed?

It had the railcard discount too yes.
 

Egg Centric

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He renewed it immediately upon realising it had expired through trainline.

From what I'm understanding there may be grounds to appeal as he wasn't offered a penalty fair to an earlier station?

Yes. In fact it's not just about being "offered" it, it's what should be given unless your brother specifically requested otherwise (which I assume he didn't, right? If he did specifically request StP then it would be an entirely different matter). All it needs to state is that the Penalty Fare did not conform to Paragraph A, Subsection 2, Section 9 of the Penalty Fares Regulations by being charged to St Pancras when the next scheduled station call was Market Harborough, thus by Paragraph A, Subsction 3, Section 16 of the same regulations the Penalty Fare must be cancelled (also, quote the content of both those paragraphs in your letter).

That's the theory. In practice, you get three appeals going through layers of decreasing incompetence, and it would be no surprise at all no matter how clearly worded if the first and even the second appeal are rejected. But they're free so I wouldn't "worry" about that.

If you post your draft appeal here people who are better at wording things than me can have a look at it with suggestions for clarity.
 
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I am appealing Penalty Fare Notice [REF].

The Penalty Fare was issued on the 11:43 EMR Leicester–London St Pancras service at 11:48. The next scheduled stop after the inspection was Market Harborough. I was not informed that I could leave the train at Market Harborough or be issued the fare to that station.

Under Regulation 9:

9.—(1) [F1Subject to paragraph (1A),] Where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of that penalty fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable, whichever is greater.
[F2(1A) …the amount of the penalty fare is—
(a) £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable, or
(b) if paid before the end of the period of 21 days… £50 plus the price of the full single fare applicable.
(1B) …no account is to be taken of any time on appeal.]
(2) “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare… from the boarding station to—
(a) the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call;

Because the next scheduled station call was Market Harborough, the Penalty Fare could only be calculated to that station unless I requested otherwise, which I did not. Charging it to London St Pancras did not comply with Regulation 9.

Under Regulation 16:

16.—(1) A person… charged a penalty fare… may appeal…
(2) An appeal… must be made… on one or more of the grounds specified in paragraph (3).
(3) (a) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;

I appeal under Regulation 16(3)(a). As the Penalty Fare was not charged in accordance with Regulation 9, it must be cancelled.

----
How does this look?

Thank you all for helping it's a genuine kindness.
 

30907

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Under Regulation 9:

9.—(1) [F1Subject to paragraph (1A),] Where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of that penalty fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable, whichever is greater.
[F2(1A) …the amount of the penalty fare is—
(a) £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable, or
(b) if paid before the end of the period of 21 days… £50 plus the price of the full single fare applicable.
(1B) …no account is to be taken of any time on appeal.]
This whole section above can be cut as you are not appealing under any of its heads.
(2) “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare… from the boarding station to—
(a) the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call;

Because the next scheduled station call was Market Harborough, the Penalty Fare could only be calculated to that station unless I requested otherwise, which I did not. Charging it to London St Pancras did not comply with Regulation 9.

Under Regulation 16:

16.—(1) A person… charged a penalty fare… may appeal…
(2) An appeal… must be made… on one or more of the grounds specified in paragraph (3).
Again, no need to tell them this detail - keep it succinct.
(3) (a) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;

I appeal under Regulation 16(3)(a). As the Penalty Fare was not charged in accordance with Regulation 9, it must be cancelled.

----
How does this look?

Thank you all for helping it's a genuine kindness.
 
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Hi all

The first appeal was rejected.
That's the theory. In practice, you get three appeals going through layers of decreasing incompetence, and it would be no surprise at all no matter how clearly worded if the first and even the second appeal are rejected. But they're free so I wouldn't "worry" about that.

Should I continue to appeal with the same appeal as prior?

To ensure fairness and consistency in the decision-making process, appeals are considered in conjunction
with a code of practice. The statements submitted on behalf of the passenger and the train company will
both be taken into account by an experienced assessor to determine the appeal outcome. More information
about how appeals are decided is available on our homepage at www.penaltyservices.co.uk.
Many rail users consider penalty fares to be an accusation of fare avoidance but this is not the case at
all. A Penalty Fare is simply a higher fare which may be issued under The Penalty Fares Rules and
Regulations by a member of staff who is licensed to act on behalf of a train operating company which
issues penalty fares. Penalty fare warning posters are on display at every penalty fares station (as required
under Regulation 8) advising customers of the consequences for boarding a penalty fares train without a
valid ticket or other authority to travel in their possession.
The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to
boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for
inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they
may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare Notice.
I understand the Railcard required to validate the discount applied to the ticket produced for inspection was
found to be out of date.
In accordance with the NRCoT, passengers must produce at the request of staff or agent acting on behalf
of the train company, a valid photocard, Railcard or any other necessary documentation to support the
validity of the ticket offered for travel. If unable to do so, they will be treated as having joined the train
without a ticket and may be liable to a Penalty Fare Notice.
Ordinarily, where a Railcard and accompanying Photocard cannot be produced to validate a ticket bought
with Railcard discount applied at the time ticket inspection takes place, an appeal will be declined. This is
because the terms and conditions relating to the use of a Railcard specify that valid documentation must be
produced for inspection when required. Unfortunately, the National Rail Conditions of Travel do not
facilitate the production of a valid Railcard after ticket inspection has taken place.
Although there are circumstances where we would accept an appeal from a rail user who did not have a
valid Railcard in their possession (such as where a member of staff had sold a ticket with Railcard discount
applied immediately prior to travel), where discount has been applied to a ticket directly by a passenger,
either online or at the ticket vending machine, the responsibility to carry and produce a valid Railcard for
inspection becomes the passenger's alone
As a valid Railcard was unavailable for inspection at the time of travel, and there is no evidence to support
the discount having been applied erroneously by staff, I'm afraid it has been concluded that the Penalty
Fare Notice should stand.
Penalty Services does not employ the personnel who are licensed to issue penalty fares and we have no
authority to handle any staff or service complaints. To enable this part of your letter to be addressed by the
appropriate body, please contact the train company's customer services team.
Having taken into consideration all the points raised to date, we regret to advise that your appeal has been
unsuccessful. It is your right to re-appeal this decision. Any further appeal will be considered by a different
appeal assessor. If re-appealing, please give the reason(s) why you are appealing against this decision and
also mention any additional circumstances you would like taken into account. A further appeal should be
submitted by post to: Penalty Services, 12 Deben Mill Business Centre, Old Maltings Approach,
Woodbridge, IP12 1BL. or through our website at www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/ within 14
days of the date this letter was received.
If you choose not to re-appeal and have not already paid your Penalty Fare Notice, you should pay any
outstanding debt. Failure to pay can mean that the time allowed to pay the reduced amount for the Penalty
Fare can run out making the amount of the Penalty Fare £100 plus the price of the full single fare
applicable and further delays in payment may result in administration fees being added by the train
company or its debt recovery agency.
Please also be aware that if you do not re-appeal this decision or pay the penalty fare within 14 days of the
date this letter was received, the train operating company will be entitled to commence court proceedings to
recover the penalty fare.
Where this reply came by post to your address, the date received is assumed to be the second working day
after the letter/post date as defined in paragraph 3 of schedule 2 of The Railways (Penalty Fares)
Regulations 2018 as amended from time to time. Where you have been informed by email reply, the date
received is the letter date.

This was the response - I assume that this is a standardised response?

Thank you for helping us previously and any help you can offer now.
 

furlong

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Seems like they didn't read or understand the appeal, if what you sent is similar to what you wrote here, as there was no mention of the railcard in your grounds for appeal there was no reason for their response to mention this, and if they're arguing staff failing to adhere to the regulations when issuing a Penalty Fare is a matter for a complaint to the train company and not for them they have fundamentally misunderstood their role (and you have a further argument that the appeals process itself is not compliant with the regulations and therefore no Penalty Fares can be imposed on anyone)!

But basically re-appeal on the same grounds (now under reg 17 not 16) but if you post your proposed text again people might help you to make it clearer. It looks like you missed out the background explaining why the choice of that particular penalty was higher than necessary and therefore perverse.
 
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Hi all

Providing an update for those that might be curious or in case this helps someone in the future.

To ensure fairness and consistency in the decision-making process, appeals are considered in conjunction
with a code of practice. The statements submitted on behalf of the passenger and the train company will
both be taken into account by an experienced assessor to determine the appeal outcome. More information
about how appeals are decided is available on our homepage at www.penaltyservices.co.uk.

Many rail users consider penalty fares to be an accusation of fare avoidance but this is not the case at
all. A Penalty Fare is simply a higher fare which may be issued under The Penalty Fares Rules and
Regulations by a member of staff who is licensed to act on behalf of a train operating company which
issues penalty fares. Penalty fare warning posters are on display at every penalty fares station (as required
under Regulation 8) advising customers of the consequences for boarding a penalty fares train without a
valid ticket or other authority to travel in their possession.

The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to
boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for
inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they
may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare Notice.

The first thing an assessor will judge when handling an appeal is the train company's compliance with The
Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 as amended from time to time. Failure to comply may result in
the appeal being won by default, even where the circumstance presented by the
passenger wouldn't naturally lead to a successful outcome.

It is a requirement that a penalty fare notice is completed in accordance with all parts of Regulation
5(2) and on this occasion it has been concluded that this notice is not wholly compliant with that Regulation.
That being the case, you are not liable to pay the Penalty Fare Surcharge, but the full single fare applicable
for the journey made, £78.50, must be paid.

This appeal has been successful and is now considered closed, however, unless there has already been a
payment towards the Penalty Fare Notice that covers this outstanding amount for the journey you made,
this liability must still be paid.

The train operating company has been informed to remove the Penalty Fare Surcharge leaving only the
liability for the journey you made.

If you have not already made a payment towards the Penalty Fare Notice, in order to avoid administration
fees being added by the train operating company or their debt recovery agents, you should pay the
outstanding amount within 14 days from the date of this response.

Not sure what next steps are or what we'll do next. Likely pay up since it doesn't look like we have any other choice.

Thanks everyone again for the help.
 

pwharley

Member
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Messages
82
"That being the case, you are not liable to pay the Penalty Fare Surcharge, but the full single fare applicable
for the journey made, £78.50, must be paid."

Note that this is incorrect, as the second ticket became valid upon renewal of the railcard.
One of the fares listed in post #8 is all that is owed.
 

furlong

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The appeals body only has jurisdiction over the penalty amount.

It seems improper for these letters to discuss any fare that may remain due as that is solely a matter for the train company itself.

You could write to the train company enclosing a cheque for the fare to the next station that you believe remains due, with a brief explanation.

You'd expect a court only to allow them to recover the correct fare that was due - and not to allow them to profit from a mistake of their own making!
 
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