Penalty Charge

[YoungOne]

Hi, I was travelling from Gravesend to Farnborough on the 3rd of July with a return ticket. On the journey back, when I arrived at Gravesend station, I noticed I couldn't find my ticket. The lady who was at the gate with police officers asked me to look for a valid ticket. I had a large bag with many things in my pocket.

After about 10 minutes of searching the officer asked for my details. I have never been stopped before nor did I know what was going on, so I thought they were going to check on their system whether I purchased a ticket or not which would allow me to get through the gates. I noticed she had printed out the ticket, and only then she told me I was being charged 136.60 Pounds for a penalty. And If I pay within 21 days the payment is only 86.60 pounds.

Just moments after I literally found my ticket with the receipt I had purchased the ticket in my back pocket, which I informed her about. She told me It was too late since the penalty was already printed and I can appeal online. In a rush I thought no problem, since I had the ticket with the receipt there is no possible way my appeal will get denied.

After uploading the receipt showing the date of purchase and the time (the same day) with the valid ticket showing my return from Farnborough to Gravesend, my appeal had been denied. I'm extremely confused. How is this even possible, when I provided clear evidence? I can appeal again, but I'm not sure what to say since my first appeal was denied. Is it possible I can win the appeal? Or do I have to pay the fine?

It's quite unfair since I literally did have the ticket on me at the gate. I still have the receipt plus the ticket of my journey with the penalty ticket on me. I even have the purchase receipt on my phone where I bought it on trainline with a timeline on my google maps showing I did travel from Gravesend to Farnborough and back. Thanks!

 

[Haywain]

It's quite unfair since I literally did have the ticket on me at the gate.

That would also have been the case if you had only found it the next day, so is not helpful. It sounds as though you were given ample time to find the ticket before the Penalty Fare was issued, so you will have to rely on the appeal process - others will be able to advise whether you have suitable grounds for appeal.

 

[AlterEgo]

Which ticket did you purchase exactly, and from where? And to be clear, you found the *actual ticket* on your person just after she said she was giving you a Penalty Fare?

 

[island]

The Penalty Fare is invalid.

This is because it is non-compliant with regulation 9 of the Penalty Fares Regulations: it has been issued for an amount that is not the amount of the single fare for the journey from the station where the passenger boarded the train to the station at which the passenger was leaving the train.

The correct amount would have been £115, or £65 if paid within 28 days, as the fare from London Waterloo East to Gravesend is £15.

This invalidates the Penalty Fare and an appeal should be lodged explaining this.

 

[Snow1964]

Just to be clear, although it took you a few minutes to find your ticket, did you find it before attempting to go through the exit barriers. Was the penalty ticket issued whilst you were still on the platform side of the barriers.

It would help clarify if you were unable to produce a ticket when requested by a ticket inspector, or if you reached the barriers knew you had it somewhere and started looking.

There is a different charge for failing to produce a ticket to not having a valid ticket.


I am also unclear why if you had already made an appeal in front of police officers (when you found the ticket), you then need to appeal a second time online. Sort of sounds like they rejected your in person appeal and what another appeal online. I am not sure which part of the railway bylaws says an in person appeal needs to be replaced by an online appeal.

 

[kkong]

The Penalty Fare is invalid.

This is because it is non-compliant with regulation 9 of the Penalty Fares Regulations: it has been issued for an amount that is not the amount of the single fare for the journey from the station where the passenger boarded the train to the station at which the passenger was leaving the train.

The correct amount would have been £115, or £65 if paid within 28 days, as the fare from London Waterloo East to Gravesend is £15.

A Gravesend to Farnborough CDS is £36.60, so that sounds right for the £86.60 (and £136.30, which I assume is a typo, should be £136.60) as stated by the OP.

Perhaps the OP edited their post after you replied to amend the origin and destination?

 

[Watershed]

A Gravesend to Farnborough CDS is £36.60, so that sounds right for the £86.60 (and £136.30, which I assume is a typo, should be £136.60) as stated by the OP.

Perhaps the OP edited their post after you replied to amend the origin and destination?

@island is correct to note that the Regulations require the "full single fare applicable", used when calculating the value of the Penalty Fare, to be determined by reference to the station at which the passenger boarded the train on which, or after leaving which, they were 'caught' - not the station at which they started their journey.

Therefore, although £36.60 is indeed the fare from Farnborough to Gravesend, it was not the correct amount to issue the Penalty Fare for.

 

[island]

A Gravesend to Farnborough CDS is £36.60, so that sounds right for the £86.60 (and £136.30, which I assume is a typo, should be £136.60) as stated by the OP.

Perhaps the OP edited their post after you replied to amend the origin and destination?

Once again, the penalty fare is to be charged from the station where the passenger got on that train to the station where they got off (section 9, Railways Penalty Fares Regulations 2018).

The passenger did not get on that train at Farnborough. There are no direct trains from Farnborough to Gravesend. So it is not correct to use a fare from Farnborough.

 

[kkong]

Ah, I see.

Would the situation be different if the circumstances in section 6 (6) of the Regulations applied (reference to "any preceding train")?

 

[island]

There is no provision for a Penalty Fare to be calculated based on travel on previous trains.

 

[YoungOne]

Which ticket did you purchase exactly, and from where? And to be clear, you found the *actual ticket* on your person just after she said she was giving you a Penalty Fare?

Hi, so I purchased the ticket via Trainline app, and then printed it at the station from someone working at the desk. Yes, I had found the actual ticket in person after the penalty fare was printed and given to me. And to clarify about the appeal, the appeal was done online via epfn.penaltyfares.co.uk. And mistake on my part the amount due is 136.60 pounds and if payed within 21 days its 86.60. And yes there was no direct train from Farnborough to Gravesend, I had to go to waterloo station.

 

[Watershed]

Ah, I see.

Would the situation be different if the circumstances in section 6 (6) of the Regulations applied (reference to "any preceding train")?

I can see how you're getting to that conclusion, but no.

Regulation 6(6) is just an "exclusion to the exclusion" that you normally can't be issued with a PF if there aren't ticket buying facilities at your origin station. It means that you can still be issued with a PF in such cases, if you were offered the opportunity to buy a ticket (e.g. by the guard) and you refused to buy a ticket from them.

I suppose this could be seen as a bit of an oversight in the Regulations, but it's quite clear that the value of the Penalty Fare has to be from the station where the last train was boarded.

 

[YoungOne]

Just to be clear, although it took you a few minutes to find your ticket, did you find it before attempting to go through the exit barriers. Was the penalty ticket issued whilst you were still on the platform side of the barriers.

It would help clarify if you were unable to produce a ticket when requested by a ticket inspector, or if you reached the barriers knew you had it somewhere and started looking.

There is a different charge for failing to produce a ticket to not having a valid ticket.


I am also unclear why if you had already made an appeal in front of police officers (when you found the ticket), you then need to appeal a second time online. Sort of sounds like they rejected your in person appeal and what another appeal online. I am not sure which part of the railway bylaws says an in person appeal needs to be replaced by an online appeal.

Hi, I received the penalty while still in the station on the platform side, before I exit the station through the barrier. I had the ticket in my back pocket before I exited the barriers. I didn't appeal in front of the officers. I appealed online which got denied.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2023 ==

Just to be clear, although it took you a few minutes to find your ticket, did you find it before attempting to go through the exit barriers. Was the penalty ticket issued whilst you were still on the platform side of the barriers.

It would help clarify if you were unable to produce a ticket when requested by a ticket inspector, or if you reached the barriers knew you had it somewhere and started looking.

There is a different charge for failing to produce a ticket to not having a valid ticket.


I am also unclear why if you had already made an appeal in front of police officers (when you found the ticket), you then need to appeal a second time online. Sort of sounds like they rejected your in person appeal and what another appeal online. I am not sure which part of the railway bylaws says an in person appeal needs to be replaced by an online appeal.

On the website I can appeal up to 3 times, My first one got rejected, meaning I have another change to appeal.

 

[Watershed]

Hi, so I purchased the ticket via Trainline app, and then printed it at the station from someone working at the desk. Yes, I had found the actual ticket in person after the penalty fare was printed and given to me. And to clarify about the appeal, the appeal was done online via epfn.penaltyfares.co.uk. And mistake on my part the amount due is 136.60 pounds and if payed within 21 days its 86.60. And yes there was no direct train from Farnborough to Gravesend, I had to go to waterloo station.

Thanks for confirming that. So you should raise a second stage appeal, on the basis that the Penalty Fare wasn't issued in accordance with the requirements of the Regulations.

This is because the Penalty Fare was issued for a value of £136.60 - but Regulation 9(2A) requires that a Penalty Fare in England be issued for £100 plus the "full single fare applicable" from the boarding station, which in your case would be £15, for a total of £115.

 

[thedbdiboy]

In this case I would absolutely appeal this again, and if necessary take it to the third stage. It's useful that in this case there is a technical non-compliance with the regulations, but frankly the basic facts of the case fall well within the discretion criteria.

 

[fandroid]

I'm not sure whether appeals based on technicalities have normally been successful. I don't think we've seen much feedback on that.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't include the technical objection. I think it's essential, but get advice from here on the precise wording as the penalty fares contractors can be quite superficial in their analysis of appeals.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2023 ==

If the inspector is asked for their take on the fact that you did provide a valid ticket before leaving the station, it might turn out to be their word against yours. With police there, and presumably CCTV too, even possibly a bodycam worn by the inspector, there ought to be some footage to back up your word. Ask them to get the railway company to check all those possibilities. Time has drifted on a bit (two weeks) so some footage might have been wiped, but it's worth insisting that all possible evidence for your side of the story is sought out and checked.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2023 ==

I don't know the legal niceties around penalty fares, but you could finish by asking that the railway company withdraw the penalty fare altogether, rather than leaving it to the whims of the penalty fare contractors.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not sure whether appeals based on technicalities have normally been successful

It isn't a technicality; this Penalty Fare is certainly in contravention of the Regulations and @island did well to spot it. It is a specific ground of appeal, and will be quashed.

 

[thedbdiboy]

I don't know the legal niceties around penalty fares, but you could finish by asking that the railway company withdraw the penalty fare altogether, rather than leaving it to the whims of the penalty fare contractors.

The 'contractors' are part of the legal process. I'm hoping you still have the ticket (which will be coded with the time and location of issue) as its pretty incontrovertible evidence. The fact that you were only able to produce it within a few minutes of being asked would fall well within the reasonable discretion criteria even without the technical errors

 

[fandroid]

The 'contractors' are part of the legal process. I'm hoping you still have the ticket (which will be coded with the time and location of issue) as its pretty incontrovertible evidence. The fact that you were only able to produce it within a few minutes of being asked would fall well within the reasonable discretion criteria even without the technical errors

It's actual existence isn't incontrovertible evidence. What matters is if it was produced at the gateline. The inspector dug her heels in by saying "too late". If challenged she might just deny that it was shown at all, to justify her intransigence at the time. I know I'm being ultra pessimistic, but we've seen gateline staff stubbornness demonstrated many times here. I'm merely suggesting that the OP goes full out confident in demanding a thorough check of all relevant evidence

 

[AlterEgo]

It's actual existence isn't incontrovertible evidence. What matters is if it was produced at the gateline. The inspector dug her heels in by saying "too late". If challenged she might just deny that it was shown at all, to justify her intransigence at the time. I know I'm being ultra pessimistic, but we've seen gateline staff stubbornness demonstrated many times here. I'm merely suggesting that the OP goes full out confident in demanding a thorough check of all relevant evidence

None of this matters.

The Penalty Fare is indisputably for the wrong amount and is invalid. And that's that.

 

[fandroid]

None of this matters.

The Penalty Fare is indisputably for the wrong amount and is invalid. And that's that.

You have an impressive faith that Penalty Fares Ltd and the "independent panel" will see that as a showstopper. Be prepared for all eventualities is my instinctive reaction.

 

[AlterEgo]

You have an impressive faith that Penalty Fares Ltd and the "independent panel" will see that as a showstopper. Be prepared for all eventualities is my instinctive reaction.

I don’t think I can recall a penalty fare ever not being overturned in these circumstances.

 

[Hadders]

If the OP was given 10 minutes to find a ticket, I would say this is a reasonable time in which to produce a ticket. Although harsh, I would not expect an appeal to succeed based on this basis.

I would expect an appeal to succeed where a Penalty Fare has not been issued in accordance with the regulations.

 

[Segedunum]

When I was revenue trained and used to issue PFNs I was explicitly told that any muck-up, no matter how minor, would make the PFN non-compliant and an appeal would succeed. There's no umming and aahing here - the PFN is not compliant. It should be quashed.

Our legal team used to sift through ones we'd issue and pick up any minor errors to feed back so we didn't keep making them (naturally you couldn't retrospectively correct one that's already issued).

 

[fandroid]

When I was revenue trained and used to issue PFNs I was explicitly told that any muck-up, no matter how minor, would make the PFN non-compliant and an appeal would succeed. There's no umming and aahing here - the PFN is not compliant. It should be quashed.

Our legal team used to sift through ones we'd issue and pick up any minor errors to feed back so we didn't keep making them (naturally you couldn't retrospectively correct one that's already issued).

Is the system still the same? It appears that the first two appeals go through a contractor and no-one has access to their terms of reference nor the criteria used to assess their bid and give them the appointment. There are worries too that the Independent Panel for the third appeal is not properly representative. There appears to be no obvious way that the TOC's legal team get involved until later.

 

[Segedunum]

Is the system still the same? It appears that the first two appeals go through a contractor and no-one has access to their terms of reference nor the criteria used to assess their bid and give them the appointment. There are worries too that the Independent Panel for the third appeal is not properly representative. There appears to be no obvious way that the TOC's legal team get involved until later.

Unfortunately I don't know about who does the appeals - we were told it was "independent" but I didn't work for a National Rail operator. We just so happened to follow the same Penalty Fare scheme and regulations.

 

[fandroid]

Unfortunately I don't know about who does the appeals - we were told it was "independent" but I didn't work for a National Rail operator. We just so happened to follow the same Penalty Fare scheme and regulations.

It would be a good thing if a legal team did get involved from the beginning. But we're generalising here and it doesn't help the OP. All we can do to help is to advise on the appeals.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Our legal team used to sift through ones we'd issue and pick up any minor errors to feed back so we didn't keep making them (naturally you couldn't retrospectively correct one that's already issued).

Out of interest, do you know if they also cancelled them and told the customers, or did they leave them and (presumably) allow most if not all to be paid?

 

[Segedunum]

Out of interest, do you know if they also cancelled them and told the customers, or did they leave them and (presumably) allow most if not all to be paid?

To be honest I couldn't tell you. The only error I ever made was putting the offence in the wrong category - probably something like "no valid product" on a smartcard where there was a slightly more specific reason to give.

I'd have hoped they'd cancel them, but what happened was never disclosed to us.

Alas, we are digressing from the OP's case now - so we'll leave this topic here for this thread!