Penalty charge appeal rejected - genuine mistake!

[Annoyed]

Hello - just wondering if there is any point me fighting my case....

I don't live in uk but when I come back to visit, I get an Oyster card which I use from a Met line station where you need to touch the card in order to access the station.

Two weeks ago, I used an overground station (not the Met Line) which is also on Bakerloo Line. Got to station and wasn't sure I had enough credit so asked woman in ticket office how to check, touched card where she said and she confirmed I had enough (journey would cost £1.60). I then asked for info about my journey which she gave on a print out and I then went onto platform. The oyster touch pad was on the other platform and it wasn't until an inspector on train checked my ticket that I realised I hadn't touched in. I hadn't used this station before and have only used the Oyster card two or three times prior to this journey.

My ID card shows I reside abroad but the inspector was really pushy, said they couldn't issue to overseas addresses and insisted I give my mother's address. My card history shows I haven't travelled from that station before and CCTV would have shown me touching pad albeit on wrong machine.

I appealed immediately but this has been rejected.

I made a genuine mistake and feel the appeal body has been unnecessarily harsh. Is there anything else I can do? I sent photo of ID card and also the info slip from the ticket desk where I had asked for information. Had there been a touch pad at the entry point to the platform I would have seen it and remembered to touch in. The member of staff did not tell me to touch in.

Any advice appreciated - this £1.60 journey looks like it will cost a lot more. It was a mistake not an attempt to dodge my fare.

 

[bb21]

So basically it all boils down to the fact that you did not touch in, amongst all the waffle. Is that right?

Unfortunately if that is the case then you have no ground for appeal. You are clearly aware of the requirement to touch in, and the Penalty Fare has been correctly issued.

Pay it and move on. We all make mistakes and sometimes there is a price to pay for it, and this is the price you pay on this occasion, unfortunately. Life is too short to dwell on things like this.

 

[Class377]

A penalty fare is intended for genuine mistakes rather than intentional fare evasion, so it looks like it was issued correctly. I'm afraid your best bet is to pay and chalk it up to experience.

 

[yorkie]

... I realised I hadn't touched in....

The correct course of action for an authorised collector when encountering a passenger who has a mistake of this nature is to be charged a Penalty Fare. Sorry that's not what you wanted to hear.

I made a genuine mistake...

Agreed, and were treated as such, though I appreciate it won't seem like it.

It was a mistake not an attempt to dodge my fare.

Agreed. If you had been suspected of attempting to dodge the fare, you would be facing a criminal prosecution!

 

[anme]

Curious about the inspector's claim regarding overseas addresses. What happens to visitors who can't give any UK address?

 

[najaB]

Curious about the inspector's claim regarding overseas addresses. What happens to visitors who can't give any UK address?

I think that if they were able to show a foreign passport and a flight ticket then the TOC would likely let the PF go.

 

[TheEdge]

Listen to Yorkie and bb21, there is nothing to fight and appeal. Pay the PF, accept that it smarts and move on. Like people have said if the railway wanted to really "punish" you you'd not have a PF but a letter for prosecution.

 

[Annoyed]

Thanks - yes, Could've been worse. Could have been £80 not £40 and I won't make that mistake again. Thanks for taking the time to reply, I have the chalk ready
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

 

[yorkie]

Thanks - yes, Could've been worse. Could have been £80 not £40 and I won't make that mistake again. Thanks for taking the time to reply, I have the chalk ready

No worries! Yes, it's best just to pay the lower fee for paying early and then be done with it. It's not worth the hassle otherwise.

Hopefully any future trips you make in the UK will go more smoothly! You are very welcome to post in Fares Advice & Policy for fare advice, or Trip Planning for general travel advice. http://www.railforums.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=24

 

[Panda]

Curious about the inspector's claim regarding overseas addresses. What happens to visitors who can't give any UK address?

Surely even visitors have somewhere they go and sleep at night (mostly)? If you're a non-EU visitor to the UK you have to give border control a UK address, you cannot just say that you don't have one.

 

[najaB]

Surely even visitors have somewhere they go and sleep at night (mostly)? If you're a non-EU visitor to the UK you have to give border control a UK address, you cannot just say that you don't have one.

What if they're on their way to the airport?

 

[LowLevel]

I hate Smartcards with a passion. I'm a railwayman myself and I've been caught out by them before. I get free travel on an ex NSE TOC for which I use a pass. I was interchanging from NR to LU and came across the exit barriers from NR. Without even thinking about it because I came across barriers I touched my card and realised there was another set of barriers to get into LU, I'd touched out without touching in and got penalty charged - I wasn't the only member of my party to do it either.

It was refunded but they just seem to confuse everyone from staff to travellers and when they go wrong it's a nonsense to sort out.

 

[DownSouth]

Surely even visitors have somewhere they go and sleep at night (mostly)? If you're a non-EU visitor to the UK you have to give border control a UK address, you cannot just say that you don't have one.

Could that UK address be given as your country's consulate, embassy or high commission?

 

[jimbo99]

Surely it is time to rename the fare?

So many threads like this one where people feel they are being "punished" for a genuine mistake. Of course the argument is that railway staff can't judge whether it's a mistake or not, so the penalty fare system is meant to get around this problem.

Given the "price" of a penalty fare is a multiple of the normal fare, they are issued on the spot by people in uniform, and they called "penalty" fares.. honest travellers are always going to be left feeling aggrieved when they intended nothing more than to travel as a normal fare paying customer. "Penalty" is "punishment" by definition, so it entails a judgment and being penalised.

I recently lost some hours work when a member of staff had a penalty fare. The money wasn't a problem, he just felt criminalised for what was just a mistake. He found "moving on" quite a struggle and for some days avoided travelling on the railway because of what happened. As a kid I was once accused of shoplifting (I'd paid for the stuff and re-entered the shop later). In my case the shop realised it was their mistake. But just the very accusation upset me for days.

If they really are meant to be "non-judgmental" perhaps they could be called "on the spot fares" or some such. This would have the same deterrent effect on would-be fare dodgers whilst not upsetting regular customers to the same degree.

 

[anme]

Surely even visitors have somewhere they go and sleep at night (mostly)? If you're a non-EU visitor to the UK you have to give border control a UK address, you cannot just say that you don't have one.

Could that UK address be given as your country's consulate, embassy or high commission?

The important question is what the address will be used for. If it's just to stop the form from looking empty then indeed any address is fine. If it's for correspondence, there's not much point taking the address of a hotel, guest house, tent, etc in the UK, if the person concerned will have gone back home by the time any letters are sent. Hotels are not likely to forward mail abroad, even if they have their guest's address on file.

Giving the address of an embassy or consulate won't necessarily help much either. Consider whether a letter sent to "John Smith, c/o British Embassy, Paris" is likely to reach the correct UK resident.

 

[talltim]

Surely even visitors have somewhere they go and sleep at night (mostly)? If you're a non-EU visitor to the UK you have to give border control a UK address, you cannot just say that you don't have one.

And if you visiting for the day? I've done the reverse (trip out of the EU and back in one day)

 

[Panda]

And if you visiting for the day? I've done the reverse (trip out of the EU and back in one day)

You still have to supply a UK contact address. No getting out of it.

 

[Deerfold]

You still have to supply a UK contact address. No getting out of it.

And if you can't? I did a 24 hour to Paris a little while back. Once I'd checked out of my hostel on the second day to return I had no further connection with them. I could have caught a local train back to connect with the Eurostar.

If I'd made a mistake with a ticket what address in France could I have given?

Similarly I've considered doing a very long day trip to Copenhagen - you can easily have 12 hours in the city centre if you fly both ways from London.

I'm sure the reverse could apply with someone visiting London.

 

[jkdd77]

The byelaws and the RRA require only that a passenger must give their name and address on demand; there is no requirement for the address to be a UK address.

 

[anme]

You still have to supply a UK contact address. No getting out of it.

What is the address used for? As I pointed out several posts ago, that's the critical question. If it's just to make the form look pretty, then any address is fine. If it's for correspondence, there is no point taking a UK address if correspondence sent there will not reach the person concerned.

It's all very fine comparing this to the address given on immigration forms, but that is not likely to be used for correspondence.

 

[island]

And if you can't? I did a 24 hour to Paris a little while back. Once I'd checked out of my hostel on the second day to return I had no further connection with them. I could have caught a local train back to connect with the Eurostar.

If I'd made a mistake with a ticket what address in France could I have given?

Similarly I've considered doing a very long day trip to Copenhagen - you can easily have 12 hours in the city centre if you fly both ways from London.

I'm sure the reverse could apply with someone visiting London.

You're talking at cross-purposes. Panda posted (irrelevantly if correctly) that a non-EU passport holder must provide a UK address at immigration. A passenger detected for a ticketing offence must provide an address; there is no requirement for this address to be in the UK, although one suspects that if it is not, there is a possibility that the railway staff member dealing with the offence may take a different course of action.

 

[Deerfold]

You're talking at cross-purposes. Panda posted (irrelevantly if correctly) that a non-EU passport holder must provide a UK address at immigration. A passenger detected for a ticketing offence must provide an address; there is no requirement for this address to be in the UK, although one suspects that if it is not, there is a possibility that the railway staff member dealing with the offence may take a different course of action.

We seem to be - thanks for clarifying.

 

[anme]

You're talking at cross-purposes. Panda posted (irrelevantly if correctly) that a non-EU passport holder must provide a UK address at immigration. A passenger detected for a ticketing offence must provide an address; there is no requirement for this address to be in the UK, although one suspects that if it is not, there is a possibility that the railway staff member dealing with the offence may take a different course of action.

Ok, but this contradicts the behaviour of the inspector described in post #1, who insisted in a UK address. I and others have been questioning this, as some people will not be able to provide a useful UK address, regardless of what is required for immigration.

To be clear - was the inspector wrong to insist on the UK address, and refuse to accept a foreign address?

 

[reb0118]

To be clear - was the inspector wrong to insist on the UK address, and refuse to accept a foreign address?

Yes, but as it is unlikely that this matter will be followed up abroad it is imperative to obtain payment from the passenger if at all possible.

 

[IanXC]

If they really are meant to be "non-judgmental" perhaps they could be called "on the spot fares" or some such. This would have the same deterrent effect on would-be fare dodgers whilst not upsetting regular customers to the same degree.

Manchester Metrolink have managed this - their name for this is "Standard Fare".

 

[starrymarkb]

Most continental operators do similar penalty fares, often they are much steeper then the UK railway's £20

ie LVB in Leipzig = €40-€100 on the spot, no excuses
TPG in Geneva = ChF80 (£60) on the spot, again no excuses (I watched them fining a tourist who'd not got their free tourist ticket with them) - fine doubles if you can't pay on the spot.
SBB = ChF130 (£100) on the spot - double if you can't pay instantly

I would be interested to know how appealing to them goes.

 

[anme]

Yes, but as it is unlikely that this matter will be followed up abroad it is imperative to obtain payment from the passenger if at all possible.

Ok good. I am very disturbed that an inspector refused to accept a foreign address and pressured the passenger into providing a UK address. Remember that providing a false address is a serious offence (as we often see here) so a representative of the railway who exerts such pressure could get someone into serious trouble.